Rivalry between Occultism and Spiritualism

[Draco20]

As we know, spiritualists of the 20th century belonged to the elite, the higher classes that attempted to communicate with the dead through mediums, automatic writing ect. while most occultists tended to be poor and unemployed.

But why was there a rivalry? Was Eliphas Levi right to be highly critical of spiritualism and become emphatically anti-spiritist?

What do you think?

[chowderpope]

Spiritism seems superficial, mostly for amusement, something to spook your friends with. Occultism implies more serious work. I can see how someone would not respect spiritism. I don't really respect it myself.

[cactusjack543]

isnt it just bits and pieces for people i collect most all darkness....

[Desecrated]

As we know, spiritualists of the 20th century belonged to the elite, the higher classes that attempted to communicate with the dead through mediums, automatic writing ect. while most occultists tended to be poor and unemployed.

But why was there a rivalry? Was Eliphas Levi right to be highly critical of spiritualism and become emphatically anti-spiritist?

What do you think?

I don't agree with your assessment.
Spiritism was the new trend and everybody was doing it, including the elite.
Occultism in the form of ritual magic was practiced by the elites as well. Many members of the golden dawn was also members of SPR and other organizations.

[Draco20]

Spiritism seems superficial, mostly for amusement, something to spook your friends with. Occultism implies more serious work. I can see how someone would not respect spiritism. I don't really respect it myself.

You have never read Allan Kardec? He has made spiritism almost a science. It was as you said, superficial and mostly for amusement before he came in and started codifying what the spirits - through mediums - were claiming and developping also a real life philosophy out of the communication.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Kardec

[Cerber]

Spiritism seems superficial, mostly for amusement, something to spook your friends with. Occultism implies more serious work. I can see how someone would not respect spiritism. I don't really respect it myself.

You have never read Allan Kardec? He has made spiritism almost a science. It was as you said, superficial and mostly for amusement before he came in and started codifying what the spirits - through mediums - were claiming and developping also a real life philosophy out of the communication.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Kardec

It doesn't matter what anybody said or wrote about it. I did some science of my own of it, and after years of practicing it conclusion with 99% certainty (left out 1% just coz I'm bloody nice guy) is what my dear friend Pope said, it's only for entertainment. If you believe anything you receive through that method, you are mad or naive or both

[Desecrated]

It doesn't matter what anybody said or wrote about it. I did some science of my own of it, and after years of practicing it conclusion with 99% certainty (left out 1% just coz I'm bloody nice guy) is what my dear friend Pope said, it's only for entertainment. If you believe anything you receive through that method, you are mad or naive or both

Aren't you afraid that that is a pretty narrow view?
I mean there are millions of things going on on this earth that I have not experienced or can't recreate. I for one can't jump 9 meters, but some can.

[Cerber]

It doesn't matter what anybody said or wrote about it. I did some science of my own of it, and after years of practicing it conclusion with 99% certainty (left out 1% just coz I'm bloody nice guy) is what my dear friend Pope said, it's only for entertainment. If you believe anything you receive through that method, you are mad or naive or both

Aren't you afraid that that is a pretty narrow view?
I mean there are millions of things going on on this earth that I have not experienced or can't recreate. I for one can't jump 9 meters, but some can.

It is, to be honest, but I've spend years toying with it, researching it, experimenting with it, I became very good at it. And my attitude change towards it with deeper understanding (somewhat deeper, relatively speaking), from fascination and excitement to disappointment and even regret of time wasted. Narrow view only because I failed to find even a hint of possibility of solid valid piece of information, there was none. I'm not saying, nobody should bother doing it, it does have its merits if approached with right attitude. But desire to know future, or being able to speak to your dead grandma and ask her what's on the other side - is a wrong type of attitude. And it is ok to experiment with it, I think, there are plenty to learn, just not those things most people have in mind.
I'm only talking about "spiritism". I have other channels to receive some information about future or other things that I need. But spiritism is a dead horse to me. But I might teach my daughter of it when she gets older for entertainment, and so she could learn early on to distrust everything fairies tell you.

[Cerber]

Although for the sake of political correctness, I should point out I haven't "researched" all kinds of "spiritism". Maybe there are "kinds" that wouldn't fall in the same "narrow view", but I doubt it. And maybe something wrong with me, not with the "technology", I project to much influence or smth, which I doubt it as well, but should be on the record anyway.

[Draco20]

I mean there are millions of things going on on this earth that I have not experienced or can't recreate. I for one can't jump 9 meters, but some can.[
It is, to be honest, but I've spend years toying with it, researching it, experimenting with it, I became very good at it. And my attitude change towards it with deeper understanding (somewhat deeper, relatively speaking), from fascination and excitement to disappointment and even regret of time wasted. Narrow view only because I failed to find even a hint of possibility of solid valid piece of information, there was none. I'm not saying, nobody should bother doing it, it does have its merits if approached with right attitude. But desire to know future, or being able to speak to your dead grandma and ask her what's on the other side - is a wrong type of attitude. And it is ok to experiment with it, I think, there are plenty to learn, just not those things most people have in mind.
I'm only talking about "spiritism". I have other channels to receive some information about future or other things that I need. But spiritism is a dead horse to me. But I might teach my daughter of it when she gets older for entertainment, and so she could learn early on to distrust everything fairies tell you.

Occultists don't deny the reality behind spiritualist phenomena. Spirit communication is as old as mankind. There are entities living outside of our material world. It's part of many occult tradition east and west. From my own research, it would appear Levi hated spiritiualism/spiritism because it made this occult practice - spirit communication - mainstream. The high and middle-classes of the 20th century could simply gather around a table and start invoking spirits, as a pastime for fun. It seems Levi, Guénon or even Crowley found this ''democratization'' of the occult rather distastful. Spiritualists recognized no higher authority other than the superior spirits who delivered messages, and had little consideration for the esoteric or initiation. Anyone could be a medium, anyone could contact spirits and start channeling occult and spiritual revelations at various degrees. Whether you think it's nonesens is irrelevant, as the same thing could be said of your own personal beliefs. It's matter of perception.

[chowderpope]

Spiritism seems superficial, mostly for amusement, something to spook your friends with. Occultism implies more serious work. I can see how someone would not respect spiritism. I don't really respect it myself.

You have never read Allan Kardec? He has made spiritism almost a science. It was as you said, superficial and mostly for amusement before he came in and started codifying what the spirits - through mediums - were claiming and developping also a real life philosophy out of the communication.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Kardec

I think it's certainly possible to channel beings through people. And I'm sure people legitimately do it every day, as I'm sure there are people who fake it every day too. My conclusion is that the vast majority of beings who are willing to possess a person and speak through them have nefarious intent, and if they say otherwise they are either liars or ignorant of the damage that can be done to the brain via mediumship. I'm of the opinion that honest, benevolent spirits do not speak through mediums, but opportunistic shysters are very eager to do so.

So therefore, I see spiritism as a great big opportunity for invasive beings to prey on naive people.

[Cerber]

^^^ What He said ^^^

Occultists don't deny the reality behind spiritualist phenomena.

Neither did I.

[chowderpope]

This is a good report on the subject: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14221a.htm

For those who admit that the manifestations proceed from intelligences other than that of the medium, the next question in order is whether these intelligences are the spirits of the departed or beings that have never been embodied in human forms. The reply had often been found difficult even by avowed believers in Spiritism, and some of these have been forced to admit the action of extraneous or non-human intelligences. This conclusion is based on several sorts of evidence:

• the difficulty of establishing spirit-identity, i.e., of ascertaining whether the communicator is actually the personality he or it purports to be;
• the love of impersonation on the part of the spirits which leads them to introduce themselves as celebrities who once lived on earth, although on closer questioning they show themselves quite ignorant of those whom they personate;
• the trivial character of the communications, so radically opposed to what would be expected from those who have passed into the other world and who naturally should be concerned to impart information on the most serious subjects;
• the contradictory statements which the spirits make regarding their own condition, the relations of God and man, the fundamental precepts of morality;
• finally the low moral tone which often pervades these messages from spirits who pretend to enlighten mankind.

How you could trust any information relayed by deceptive, manipulative beings is beyond me. That's why I don't respect people who blindly trust communication with the discarnate.

[Draco20]

So therefore, I see spiritism as a great big opportunity for invasive beings to prey on naive people.

Your understanding of spiritism is precarious, at best.

Communicating with spirits is only one part of the doctrine, the practical side. Allan Karcec found that by investigating mediums, and compiling their answers, he could obtain consistant messages of interest and values throughout all them, which laid the basis for the Spiritist doctrine.

https://nwspiritism.com/spiritist-knowl ... her-books/

This one of the first thing true spiritists will teach you:

1. The spirits are not all equal nor in power, nor in knowledge or wisdom. As they are no more than human souls detached from their corporeal body, they present a variety even greater than that of people on Earth, because they come from all worlds and, among the globes. Earth is neither the most basic nor the most advanced. Thus, there are very superior spirits as there are very inferior ones; very good and bad; very wise and very ignorant; there are those of levity, malevolence, liars, astute, hypocrites, polished, sharp, jokers, etc.

https://nwspiritism.com/spiritist-knowl ... an-kardec/

[Draco20]

As for doctrine itself, it is far more elaborate than simple table-turning and light effects:

"God is the Supreme Intelligence-First Cause of all things."

"God is eternal, immutable, immaterial, unique, all powerful, sovereignly just and good."

"A spirit is not an abstract, undefined being, only to be conceived of by our thought; it is a real, circumscribed being, which, in certain cases, is appreciable by the senses of sight, hearing, and touch."

"All Spirits are destined to attain perfection by passing through the different degrees of the spirit-hierarchy. This amelioration is effected by incarnation, which is imposed on some of them as an expiation, and on others as a mission. Material life is a trial which they have to undergo many times until they have attained to absolute perfection"

"A spirit's successive corporeal existences are always progressive, and never retrograde; but the rapidity of our progress depends on the efforts we make to arrive at the perfection."

"The soul possessed its own individuality before its incarnation; it preserves that individuality after its separation from the body."

"On its re-entrance into the spirit world, the soul again finds there all those whom it has known upon the earth, and all its former existences eventually come back to its memory, with the remembrance of all the good and of all the evil which it has done in them."

"Spirits exert an incessant action upon the moral world, and even upon the physical world; they act both upon matter and upon thought, and constitute one of the powers of nature, the efficient cause of many classes of phenomena hitherto unexplained or misinterpreted."

"Spirits are incessantly in relation with men. The good spirits try to lead us into the right road, sustain us under the trials of life, and aid us to bear them with courage and resignation; the bad ones tempt us to evil: it is a pleasure for them to see us fall, and to make us like themselves."

"The moral teaching of the higher spirits may be summed up, like that of Christ, in the gospel maxim, 'Do unto others as you would that others should do unto you;' that is to say, do good to all, and wrong no one. This principle of action furnishes mankind with a rule of conduct of universal application, from the smallest matters to the greatest."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritism

[chowderpope]

So therefore, I see spiritism as a great big opportunity for invasive beings to prey on naive people.

Your understanding of spiritism is precarious, at best.

I actually don't disagree with anything you've said in your last two posts. My assertion is that when a person attempts to contact spirits through various methods, very often they end up attracting a low-level negative spirit that can be skilled at presenting itself as something it's not. Then the person is often so excited they've contacted a being, they don't approach it with enough skepticism to realize they're being fooled. Therefore, I think a majority of legitimate mediums are just talking to low-level pieces of shit in costume. That's my opinion on the matter. If you disagree, that's cool. I'm not going to keep arguing with you about it.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enochian

Spiritualism ?

Occultism ?

Kelley was a spirit medium

Dee was supposedly an occultist

Crowley and the Golden Dawn worked extensively with the system...

Many claim it's validity...

But is it really valid ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_the_Law

Same questions applied

Can anyone prove it ?

If someone claims to be talking with angels or demons , are those
not a species of spirits ? What of those called "God" or gods ?

And why trust them if one would not trust information from the Faery Realm ?

What is the difference , and why do you think so ?

Where does one draw the line , how , and why ?