What is Satanism?

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Original post: Venus666

Satan-isim...say it out loud

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Original post: Submeta

I find that there are various "spectra" that define the left hand path. These are not binary categories, different paths and approaches partake of different parts to different degrees.

1) Self as primary. This translates into self-deification, self as the only legitimate authority, acceptance and celebration of desire, selfishness, etc. This is the cornerstone of Satanism, imho, and all paths partake of it.

2) Evil. Not all Satanic paths see themselves as involving evil. Still, some do.

3) Dark force vs Deity vs a Psychological (atheistic or agnostic) interpretation of Satan. These are the distinctions that often seperate the types.

4) Institutional Satanism vs Personal Satanism. No matter how much they offer lip service to personally defined values, some Satanic paths are unable to resist the "temptation" to develop a nice long list of dogmatic principles, laws, etc.

I won't try to break things down into types of Satanism (others have addressed this), but hopefully these categories are useful for some.

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Original post: Faust

SatsUrn,ÃÂ

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Original post: Venus666

Evil. Not all Satanic paths see themselves as involving evil. Still, some do. Sub-Meta

Very good point, Sub-meta;
This is the number one thing that gets me about some Satanists; it is a useless paradigim that some just cant seem to get away from.
Once the Satanist has broken away from the idea of 'evil', one can see that the very idea of 'evil' itself is a christian (or a religious moral) concept, and the satanist is able to deliver themselves from the hands of the enemy (those who would call it evil). Do not align yourself with that which you despise, unless it is to your benefit.
It would do them well to ask themselves what- or rather who, defines "evil" in the first place.

Dark force vs Deity vs a Psychological (atheistic or agnostic) interpretation of Satan. These are the distinctions that often seperate the types. -sub-meta

True, indeed. This is something that satanists will never truly agree on, which is great! Think about this, how many 'religions' or pathways let thier followers define thier own version of thier own religious ideals or beliefs? It keeps the religion fresh and moving, constantly redefining itself, and will never cease to be 'etched in stone' as one solid belief to be passed over and lost in time, like every other religion on the earth. I use the word 'religion' to define a lifestyle, and not to make it seem as a duty or a an absolute requirement. It is said that the LHP is taken by choice and not by demand.
The aithest and the non-aithest view of satan and other entities is a good point. However, I see it through a different model, though, resides within the sub-concious. Satan, and every other diety on this earth that was ever created is part of the collective conciousness, and can be accessed for any purpose. They are egregores, or created gods, if you will. This does not mean that they are any less powerfull, but they are ever-sentient, within the fabric of our human existance, four our use, education and enjoyment..

damn, i feel luciferian

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Original post: ReapeR

Then we all agree that traditional satanism is NOT a religion. Religion = weakness! No bowing/worshipping/and other forms of kissing Satanâ??s ass. Various traditional satanic organizations also claim that. But Iâ??ve noticed that a lot of luciferianistic organizations consider luciferianism as a religion. Also, modern/laveyan satanism is a religion.....

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Original post: ReapeR

[QUOTE=Venus666]However, I see it through a different model, though, resides within the sub-concious. Satan, and every other diety on this earth that was ever created is part of the collective conciousness, and can be accessed for any purpose. They are egregores, or created gods, if you will. This does not mean that they are any less powerfull, but they are ever-sentient, within the fabric of our human existance, four our use, education and enjoyment..[/QUOTE]
I don't agree with this. Satan isn't egregore. That also goes for demons and many other deityes. There are methods which can prove difference between egregores and manifested parts of human psyche and real entities. The easiest way is to master Bardon's The Practice Of Magical Evocation....

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Original post: Venus666

What other word is there to describe it? all in all any way of life, when conciously adhered to is a religion. so what else could it be called without describing it as a religion?
worship and religion are two different mindsets

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Original post: Venus666

I believe the gods were created... not that they created us.
I am of the traditional path, but I see it in this way. There are so many different aspects of the same thing, Like Apollo, Lucifer the RA, Sun God of other cultures, ect.. they are all describing the same aspect of one particular force. Like looking through different facets of the same Jewel.. It is all connected and accessable through states of mind..
I have a problem with thinking that these god(s) were here before human kind, and if they were, then who were the original gods and what purpose would they serve now to us? This also denies my free will, and would effectively make me as a pawn, merely aware of the game but not able to partcipate..ReapeR..I am only explaining my particular paradigim and what I have found to be useful to my workings..

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Original post: SatsUrn

[QUOTE=Venus666]I believe the gods were created... not that they created us.
I am of the traditional path, but I see it in this way. There are so many different aspects of the same thing, Like Apollo, Lucifer the RA, Sun God of other cultures, ect.. they are all describing the same aspect of one particular force. Like looking through different facets of the same Jewel.. It is all connected and accessable through states of mind..
I have a problem with thinking that these god(s) were here before human kind, and if they were, then who were the original gods and what purpose would they serve now to us? This also denies my free will, and would effectively make me as a pawn, merely aware of the game but not able to partcipate..ReapeR..I am only explaining my particular paradigim and what I have found to be useful to my workings..[/QUOTE]

AE ( I lost this post once so I saved it just in case)
This denies my free will, well said Venus666. I have always thought that this was the reason ( denying free will) why Lucifer (Ea) defected and joined Tiamat/Earth/Gaia. What point was LCF's life if LCF was being denied free will? In the Sumerian, Lucifer is the first persona to defect and support the first revolt on Tiamat/Earth/Gaia. After that, the trinity of opposition, "Ea, Ninmah, and Ningishzida," decided to not only alter the genetics but to Tiamatically enhance the genetics in secret, thus not only resurrecting what once was, but making what was once, now greater than. I hope I am making sense>?
I think M1thr0s here said it best so I borrowed this from On/Off Announcements thread.

Quote:SatsUrn
Personally I think Ningishzidda figured out he/she would never be accepted in the ranks of the gods and decided to take a course of action that befuddled them all?
That's been my impression as well thus far. That makes Ningishzidda the "opposer" of the gods really and humankind would appear to be the principle vehicle of this tactical opposition...

m1thr0s

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Original post: Submeta

To Venus666: a good point, to limit the psychological perspective to atheist or agnostic is incorrect. Thanks.

It's difficult for me to make "practical" sense between the deity, force and psychological perspective. I think all occult forces are somewhat "alive", for the most part, and accessible "through" the subconscious. If it's a matter of belief, or faith, that's one thing. But any of these types of dark "thing" could be experienced the same by a dark mystic capable of a direct experience.

Revised List.

1) Self as primary. The hallmark of the LHP which they all have in common.

2) Evil. Not all Satanic paths see themselves as involving evil, some do.

3) Dark force vs Deity vs a Psychological interpretation of Satan.

4) Atheistic, Agnostic or Other.

5) Institutional Satanism vs Personal Satanism.

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Original post: Väkisinkastettu

[QUOTE=ReapeR]Then we all agree that traditional satanism is NOT a religion. Religion = weakness! No bowing/worshipping/and other forms of kissing Satanâ??s ass. [/QUOTE]

For goat's sake, why does the discussion about satanism in general level always have to go to this? I mean really, how hard it is for one to understand that there could be other other kind of views, such as on whether bowing is the same as worshiping and whether worshiping is same as 'kissing ass'.

And by the way, the dictionary definiton of worship is the following:
"# [n] a feeling of profound love and admiration
# [v] love unquestioningly and uncritically or to excess; venerate as an idol; "Many teenagers idolized the Beatles"
# [v] show religious devotion to, as of a deity; "Many Hindus worship Shiva"
# [v] attend religious services;"
-HyperDictionary.com

As you can see, it can EITHER mean "show religious devotion to, as of a deity" OR "love unquestioningly and uncritically or to excess".

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Original post: m1thr0s

Väkisinkastettu - I don't know why it should, but it always seems to surprize me the places I agree with you. What's the old saying...a nod's as good as a wink? I am a philosopher. I know that about me...so for me Satanism is an exrtension of my sense of philosophy and Satan is a kind of living principle but what kind of mealy mouthed limp wristed lump of shit of a philosopher would I have to be not to be able to acknowledge other ways of perceiving the ineffable? So if someone claims to have a personal relationship with Satan the way others might have with a god...quite frankly...I stand in perfectly respectful awe. It doesn't quite work that way for me, but what of it...philosophy and religion aren't all that far apart anyway...

Long live...the Mystery...

m1thr0s

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Original post: ÃÂ

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Original post: doh

Then we all agree that traditional satanism is NOT a religion. Religion = weakness! No bowing/worshipping/and other forms of kissing Satanâ??s ass. Various traditional satanic organizations also claim that. But Iâ??ve noticed that a lot of luciferianistic organizations consider luciferianism as a religion. Also, modern/laveyan satanism is a religion.....

I have to agree with the three posting before me. Why CAN'T a belief in self be a religion? Now, granted, when people here "Satanism" and "religion" in the same sentence, many do jump to the conclusion of dark hooded figures convening around some virgin to sacrfice, surrounded by candles and chanting in tongues while Black Sabbath plays backwards in the background. But I leave those idiots that conjure this visual to their own ends.

Satanism, like almost everything else discussed here is a belief structure. Much like Wicca or Thelema or a host of others. It is different, but is still a belief structure. To use Danisty's #3 term

3) A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

it can be a religion. The only difference between Satanism and some others is that YOU are the spiritual leader. It doesn't say that you personally have to have a following.

Just my thoughts.

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Original post: Venus666

This is something that satanists will never truly agree on, which is great! Think about this, how many 'religions' or pathways let thier followers define thier own version of thier own religious ideals or beliefs? It keeps the religion fresh and moving, constantly redefining itself, and will never cease to be 'etched in stone' as one solid belief to be passed over and lost in time, like every other religion on the earth. I use the word 'religion' to define a lifestyle, and not to make it seem as a duty or a an absolute requirement. It is said that the LHP is taken by choice and not by demand. Venus666

Then call it a "belief-system"
See, this is why satanisim will for ever be the greatest belief-system. There is not one single predicted path that we all must walk. We are all individual and that makes each of us righteous in our own way.
I have a problem with joining groups like COS and Luciferian, simply for the fact that I do not know these people personally in these Org.s and I do not want to follow thier doctrine..I will, however, use them for knowledge.
You could also look into the structure of chaos, where disorder and non-conformity is the rationale. Like Doh was saying, make yourself the leader, think for yourself.

The downside of not having a single structure, is that no one could really stand up and say exactly what "satanisim" is. There would be responses as varied as the people who follow the philosiphy, and not one single person can say that one particular path is the "true way". Lavey tried to do it, but he only opened the floodgates to Hell.

--Satanisim is a great philosiphy, in all of its ways.

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Original post: ReapeR

For goat's sake, why does the discussion about satanism in general level always have to go to this? I mean really, how hard it is for one to understand that there could be other other kind of views, such as on whether bowing is the same as worshiping and whether worshiping is same as 'kissing ass'.

I was talking from my own point of view. And my view is that for me traditional satanism isnâ??t religion or bowing.

I have to agree with the three posting before me. Why CAN'T a belief in self be a religion? Now, granted, when people here "Satanism" and "religion" in the same sentence, many do jump to the conclusion of dark hooded figures convening around some virgin to sacrfice, surrounded by candles and chanting in tongues while Black Sabbath plays backwards in the background. But I leave those idiots that conjure this visual to their own ends.
Satanism, like almost everything else discussed here is a belief structure. Much like Wicca or Thelema or a host of others. It is different, but is still a belief structure. To use Danisty's #3 term it can be a religion. The only difference between Satanism and some others is that YOU are the spiritual leader. It doesn't say that you personally have to have a following.

Well, I donâ??t consider belief and religion as the same thing. Like Marx said: Religion is opium of the masses (no, Iâ??m not a communist I just like that quote of his). Religion is something like organized belief. It is used for brainwashing, money making and controlling people... Traditional satanism to me is something different and to me it doesnâ??t deserves the term religion nor it is a religion to me.

ONA said that nicely:

Other groups have tried to intellectualize Satanism - to take away the real experiences by which genuine Satanic character is formed. Or they wallow in the weaknesses of those addicted to impulses they cannot understand and do not have the strength to control. They have tried and continue to try and make Satanism respectable and safe - just another religion. They fantasize, and play games.

Other Satanic groups - if they are serious and not just using the Black Arts for their own weak gratification - claim the darker forces are merely an aspect of the psyche, the unconscious or whatever. [Both the Church of Satan and the Temple of Set make this claim.] They do this for two reasons. First, they need to - because they want to feel safe; they want to be able to play their pseudo-Satanic, pseudo-intellectual, games in a mostly urbanized safety, because the members of such groups are not proud, characterful, self-aware individuals: they need the comfort of a group, of a leader, of ethical guidelines, of feeling that Satan can be controlled by some meaningless mumbo-jumbo. In effect, the members and leaders of these groups are weak - they lack self-discipline; they lack even the desire for real self-mastery, content as they are to continue with edifying their own weaknesses, with massaging their inflated egos.

Just my thoughts.

And these are mine

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Original post: ÃÂ

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Original post: Spes

Hmm this got me pondering...

I'd say from personal viewpoint that just as there ain't in the world two exactly the same persons there ain't two exactly the same satanists. Nobody has succeeded do give out answer to "what is satanism" simply because this isn't possible. We have all asked questions wrong way here imo.

Question which can be answered to some point is - what have satanists in common, majority of them atleast? This too has been discussed and because everyone is different and got their different approach to this matter, for reason or just for sake of being different, even this question "what we have in common" couldn't be really answered. Maybe I'm going in loop here but .... If all who call themselves satanists would agree in same thing about satanism, they'd change their minds very fast because then they wouldn't be unique.

My point is being rather a question - ain't there danger in too big ego? Because from time to time I have impression we are all working for same results but then again people sulk away saying "no then we would be like herd!" This way it looks like indeed like bunch of oxes trying to move a wagon but everyone drags it in different direction on different speed.

So if we do want to improve ourselves why don't we drag this wagon of self-improvement as one? This is not suggestion - this is just pondering. Humans are weak in nature and fail their tasks too often, wouldn't this have actual results to work as one? Would this be considered as sheep-mentality if in the end you can choose to be no matter how you wish once you have improved yourself? ...

I _hope_ I don't have to explain in detail what self-improvement is about for satanists interested in occult, right?:)

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Original post: Venus666

This is something that satanists will never truly agree on, which is great! Think about this, how many 'religions' or pathways let thier followers define thier own version of thier own religious ideals or beliefs? It keeps the religion fresh and moving, constantly redefining itself, and will never cease to be 'etched in stone' as one solid belief to be passed over and lost in time, like every other religion on the earth.Venus666

The only thing that satanists can agree on and will also keep us from falling apart as a belief-system is that we have to accept the fact that we will never get along when it comes to doctrine or sects of satanisim...in essence, we have to agree to disagree
By agreeing to disagree we are going against what is traditional in a religious sense..It's awesome

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Original post: SatsUrn

AE
This is from my person experiences and thus could be an opinion?
All Satanists are linked via Tiamat. (there exists psychic connections, call it what you will) There is no real need for Satanists to gather here or there, but many do, and I am one of them who goes to gatherings.
But it is not nessessary, even when I miss a gathering I am there, and I am recognized as there, my seat is saved and I am recognized as in attendence.
I especially hate missing the ___________ but it happens, thus when that happens it seems I am in two places at once. The entire planet used to be Satanic, advanced wild animals are Satanic too and are easy to converse with. (animals in the wild who have lived long enough to see from the mind's eye, (Tiamat's Eyes) can become one with all other Satanic intelligences regardless of species. It is still a choice!
Satanic animals will not regard even fodder species as food if the creature has the intelligence, but the one's who are Satanic are treated as beloved friends/family. It has been my experience that only the Satanic can transcend interspecies communications, this is the root of Satanic Intelligence. And before anyone here decides to derides this notion I would really think about it first, for we are not alone in this universe.
My point being we are never alone even when others may think we are alone!
Satsurn
(divorce really helps with understanding this interspecies communication thing) he he he


(___________ actually celebrates Satius and not Saturn, although Saturn is thought to be the burial ground of Sat, Sat's Urn Saturn but that's another story. it occurs nowadays on the Saturday near the winter solstice) I have found little on Satius in the english language as that name is severely occulted here. Sat may be a proto Set?

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Original post: ReapeR

Actually, you were speaking for everybody when you said that we all agreed that Traditional Satanism is not a religion.

I didnâ??t express myself correctly. There are many groups and individuals who call themselves traditional satanists but there is NOTHING traditional about them. Many of the so called traditionalist donâ??t believe in Satan as a entity/energy/force, they donâ??t believe in demons, they claim that Satan and other dark forces are only an aspects of the psyche and the unconscious (which comes from LaVey), they donâ??t do rituals (traditional rituals), etc., etc. So what the hell is TRADITIONAL about them? Nothing. Where is that tradition? Nowhere. There are plenty of other names (modern, laveyan, setian, etc.) but they stick to the term traditional and have apsolutly nothing with that term. That would be the same if I would call myself a maraton runner but I only run 50 meters a day, cous hey ...thatâ??s my view on the maraton. Traditional satanism, as a word says, is traditional. A traditional way of thinking (believeing in Satan and other dark forces as the real forces and not just parts of human psyche) and traditional way of acting..... Stella Tanebrarum, Order Of The Nine Angels, Hand Of Death, Sons Of Satan, Freemasonic Order Of The Golden Centurion, etc., and many more traditional organizations that are not public accessible....that ARE traditional satanists....and everybody knows what they are all about. Notice their philosophy and philosophy of modern, laveyan, setian, luciferian and other satanists and see the difference. Yes, and all traditional organizations have their unique philosophy....but they have one thing in common â?? they all are traditional â?? they have traditional philosophy (that Satan and demons are independent energies) and traditional rituals (ceremonial rituals)... Just my thought that the term Traditional Satanist has been much commercialized and that is something I despise...


- some info about traditional satanism from Stella Tanebrarum:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthen ... adsat.html

And Iâ??m not going into any deeper discussion about religion, belief, worship and bow becouse we donâ??t use the same terminology. We give different meanings to the same word...

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Original post: ÃÂ

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Original post: ReapeR

That's what I figured was happening. That's why I posted some definitions and such. Why not explain what those terms mean for you? I'd be interested to find out.

This is roughly translated from croatian dictionary:

Å tovati (worship) = showing respect to someone or something, to admire, to respect

Klanjati (bow) = to praise, to follow a religious codex, to crouch your upper body part for someone/something to acknowledge someoneâ??s superiority over you, to acknowledge your submission to someone/something

Religija (religion) = organized believes in dogma and teachings about divine powers and/or supernatural powers, to follow dogmatic doctorines of a spiritual leader, to follow a codex of holy rules


So, when I say worship I mean doing rituals and ceremonies with Satan/demons/dark forces, but NOT to acknowledge your submission to them. To respect them but not to blindly obey them. To have some gains from respecting them. To worship and to bow is not the same thing for me. Also, religion and belief are not the same thing for me.When I say religion I mean organized believes. Belief is something personal (ideas, morals...)...and religion is for the masses, blind following, etc. To me traditional satanism is set of believes, not religion.

But as I said, thereâ??s no point discussing this further becouse we mean different things for the same words. Terminology (personal and cultural) is not the same there from where you come from and here from where I come from.

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Original post: ÃÂ

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Original post: Venus666

and why do we generally hate the words, "bow" religion or "worship"

simply because they are Anti-Satanic


Let me now say, that i have found many Neophyte, beginner wanna-be satanists claiming that they pathetically worship satan as Master or Lord, just to fit in as satanists. Hell, didnt we all go through a time like that in the beginning, when satanisim was shock value to our parents, and a rush from blasphemey and actual "devil"worship lead us on with a passion?
*snif*snif
Those sad and pathetic days are over, and Im generally pissed off at meeting newbie satanist who claim to be "satans whore" or slave, or that they have to do his bidding. What's also a laugh are satanists who claim to be a God and have only been satanists for 6 mnths..

Dont get me wrong , Ive been talking to satanists on the net since 1993 and this is my general consensus.