More issues with "Gnosis"

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Original post: Mikazo

I'm sure by now you're all tired of discussing Samael Aun Weor. However, I recently ran across his teachings and, while they seem to be replete with some very helpful knowledge, I was a little concerned about a few things, and wanted some opinions (pmcv, I have been watching your activity on these forums and would really appreciate your response).

I came away from the teachings with a lot of fear; I experienced many anxiety symptoms and lost a lot of sleep, based on the information I was given. So what I'm mainly looking for here is skepticism. I do think there are some excellent things to be learned from him, but right now I want to hear any and all suspicions you have about this guy.

What draws my attention in particular are a couple of the teachings you'll find on the gnosis website. For instance, they claim that the fact that a mala has 108 beads signifies the 108 chances a being has to realize itself before it gets recycled through in the Abyss. I know Gurdjieff and certain Theosophical teachings hint at the same notion, but at the same time I'm sure other people would say this is just another attempt to lump "reality" into yet another monolithic construct. I'm frightened because naturally, I'm not conscious enough to tell the difference, whether or not this is a legitimate teaching, and so now I'm faced with this brooding monster on my shoulder saying that if I don't do it right, I'm going to be annihilated.

I could go on, but... again, I've heard enough people saying that the guy was a radiant teacher who really knew what he was doing. What I'm looking for now are all the counter views and counter arguments, and all skepticisms you have about him and his teachings.

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Original post: Ludi

so now I'm faced with this brooding monster on my shoulder saying that if I don't do it right, I'm going to be annihilated.

You might consider all the many thousands of spiritual beliefs which you are unaware of which might tell you you're "doomed" if you don't follow their laws, rules, teachings, etc. I don't know if there are that many shades of salvationism, but perhaps there are, even a hundred or a few hundred. How could you possibly know which teachings are the "real Truth?" Why should one be more believing of Samael Aun Weor than of any number of other "enlightened" teachers?

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Original post: Mikazo

I have to admit they made a rather compelling argument, complete with a diagram and an explanation of laws. The only defense reserve I have against it are things such as Aleister Crowley's remarks that dogmatic concepts are inherently invalid (and the explanation offered by the Gnosis community does seem dogmatic, any way you put it), and I also take into account other teachers who say that mankind is caught in a plane of polarities (ideas of good vs. bad and other "opposites", Ram Dass saying that modern religions say they believe in the One, but act like they believe in the Two... a lot of the Gnostic literature I've been mulling over seems to operate on this polarized plane by saying that homosexuality and most sexual activity is inherently anti-spiritual, that God and the Devil (or the ego) can never mix, etc..)

At any rate I'm still quite shaken by all this, and I'm not sure what to think, but I know that all methods are traps. That's why I want to hear some intelligent, skeptical comments from some of you guys who are more enlightened than I am.

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Original post: Anathema_Oracle

A diagram!!!! Well if they've got a diagram it must be true *sarcasmos is humorless*

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Original post: Space Debris

Well, if it's skepticism you want to hear...

From what I've been able to learn about them, the Samaelians seem to be nothing more than a sex-obsessed personality cult that masks its shallowness with a bunch of high-flown jargon. When it's all boiled down, Samael's core teaching is that salvation is attainable only through a particular goofy sex ritual. I honestly have a hard time seeing how anyone takes them seriously...

But more to the point is the fact that, at least to my knowledge, there is nothing in the surviving writings of the historical Gnostics to support Samael's views. So if you're worried that authentic "Gnosticism" reflects whatever disturbs you about the Samaelians, I think its a safe bet to say, "probably not."

Just my 2 cents, anyway.

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Original post: Ra-Razal

I believe in the end, everything will turn out ok. There's no reason to harbor fears.

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Original post: Mikazo

I appreciate the comments, so far. As long as you're being completely honest, I'll respect whatever you have to say (I'm more interested in being informed than comforted).

The main thing is that there has to be another side to this coin, and I want to see as much of that side as possible.

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Original post: pmcv

Mikazo

While I do personally wish that you brought this up actually ON the Samael topic (because it is the kind of question I was trying to bring up myself) I think your point does have an important function so even though I can't meld the topics I really want to leave this open.

Let me first point out my own skeptical observation. One should not equate what one sees in Samael's teachings with "Gnosticism".... good or bad. As Space Debris states, we are talking about traditional Gnosticism here, and the connection has yet to be demonstrated.

Let me point out a few specific facts;

1) there is absolutely nothing in tradtitional Gnosticism that outlines a soteriological effect of sexual ritual.

2) There is nothing in traditional Gnosticism outlining a defined number of reincarnations.... or even reincarnation itself (the 108 beads is not a Gnostic belief)

3) In the technical meaning of the term... Gurdjief, Theosophy, and Crowley are not Gnostic... and no one here has done anything to even debate how closely related they may be.

The fact is, if we talk about traditional Gnosticism, whether Sethian or Valentinian, you will get a picture that sounds like it is probably not even recognizable from what you have read.

May I ask you a question? Have you ever read any actual traditional Gnostic texts? I don't mean that as an accusation, but simply to point out that some of the unrest you seem to be talking about simply doesn't seem to fit the system.

There are even more fundemental questions here though. For instance, how sure are you that even the term "Gnosis" means the same thing in the traditional outline as it does in your readings?

However, while there is no genuine proof of any historical sexual ritual in Gnosticism, let me also point out that there is a good case against the extreme ascetic view that you seem to see in your other Gnostic readings (since I am unsure of which readings, I guess I am trying to point out a middle ground here from the cases you seem to be talking about). Many of the "Antisexual" passages in Gnostic liturature are not actually against sex, only against procreation. And, I cannot recall any mention, pro or con, concerning homosexuality. Let us not forget that Gnosticism is originally a Platonic outline, and we should remember that homosexuality is actually respected in Platonism.

It is not really my point either way other than the fact that you seem to have some assumptions that you have not given any context for. Forgive me if that sounds like a challenge.... but in a way I do consider it my role here to create a little bit of a challenge

PMCV

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Mikazo

I haven't really delved deeply into any of the traditional Gnostic texts, I'm afraid; the only "Gnosis" that I am familiar with thus far has been presented by Samael's followers (www.gnosis-usa.com, etc..) The teachings I'm referring to come from sites such as these. I'm not biased toward any particular school of thought, whether it's Gnosticism or Sufism or Gurdjieff's teachings or whatever else. I'm simply starting out on the higher consciousness trip like a lot of other people and am trying to receive as much transcedental information that I can.

I'm confronted with bigger and bigger challenges to my skepticism the farther in my studies I go. Samael is definetly a worthy one. He shook me to the core, and I'm still reeling from the enormous amount of fear I walked away with.

The most curious points in his teachings (and his follower's teachings) concern the following ideas:
1. Preservation of the semen through tantric practice opens higher states of consciousness. That is, it shouldn't be expended constantly, but not suppressed either: it can be converted into energy through intelligent handling. This doesn't seem like a terribly bad idea, but they also say that the semen should never ever be spilled, because that does enormous damage to the body.

2. A being which does not realize itself (wake up) will eventually devolve back down the wheel, the ego being completely annihilated through Hell (the Klipoth, whatever you want to call it), and will eventually go back to where it started and ascend all over again through the mineral, plant, and animal kingdoms. Essentially, mother nature (they say) only has room to give you 108 chances. I do remember a Theosophical essay which expounded on the same idea, but at the same time this seems like an effective fear tool: you could be on your 108th existence right now, so you'd better hurry up and get your shit together. And guess what; I have just the way to do it.

Just a passing thought.

3. Fornication is a sure path to Hell; fornication is generally anything that involves spilling the semen. Masturbation is an abuse of the sexual and intellectual centers (because you are using the intellect to form a concept with which to arouse the sexual energies). This also includes fetishism and homosexuality (which they give detailed explanations for, which are available on the sites; I'm not even going to begin to go into them because of their complexity).

There's much more, but this is what caught my eye. I wonder how much of the work undertaken in these lectures is undertaken out of a fear of going to hell. I found it very difficult to retain a sense of humor after reading it, at any rate; I lost a lot of sleep over it, and wondered obsessively what I need to do to straighten everything out.

On the site, they say "gnosis" is "Knowledge that transcends belief or dogma." Unfortunately, I see a lot of dogmatic concepts in there, and I have to wonder how they were formed, what information Samael was operating under when coming up with them. And the trouble is, I can't discern what to take seriously.

I hope I answered your questions adequately.

EDIT: I should also mention the issue of spilling the seed, masturbating, etc.. as being a blasphemy against the Holy Spirit; that it creates karma that can only be paid with pain.

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Original post: pmcv

Ok, then let me point out a few problems I already see where it is concerned with traditional Gnosticism.

First the whole notion of preservation of semen, and the sexual act, is absolutely against traditional Gnostic understanding. Sexuality, no matter how you try to repackage it, is a function of the field of opposites. The closest it comes to spiritual function in Gnostic texts is that there is an erotic notion connected to the Sophia and the Logos (which is also between the "twin" and the initiate)... but this not something that outlines dogma in traditional Gnostic understanding. What I mean is, just how this comes into play is not something that is used to outline behavior methods for salvation beyond the obvious initiatory aspects.

I had a friend who was a member of the Jim Jones group as a child, but his parents did not follow the leader into death... they stayed in California. They also talk about the fear they had in parting from the group. In Gnostic terms, this fear is a function of the Demiurgos.... and proof that the path is not Gnostic. This is not to say that the Gnostic path does not have aspects that make a person want to $#!% their pants, but that the fear is not about going to hell, or failing. The fear that comes from a Gnostic system is more like the fear that one has as a scientist who looks into the night sky and has some idea of just how small we are. When that really hits you, no one can blame you for soiling your shorts.

The sexual act is a physical act, in the Gnostic understanding. It may have ritual importance, but not literal importance. Any group that confuses the two is not "Gnostic".

I'll be direct here. I don't know if what you are talking about is actually in accord with Samael's teachings, but they are not in line with Gnostic teachings. In fact, what you are talking about would be considered a load of crap.

May I also point out one last thing that may not be so important technically.... but may have some value in understanding the destinction. In traditional Gnostic thought the name "Samael" refers to the lier, the idiot god who misleads his followers into ignorance (anti Gnosticism). Why did Samael take the name of the fool, the lier, literally the "Blind God" in Traditional Gnostic thought?

I think you are overly quick to connect movements that may not be related. May I suggest that you take some time to understand traditional Gnosticism before you consider groups that may have taken some terms from Gnosticism?

PMCV

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Original post: Mikazo

Heh... that's good advice.

I appreciate your input greatly.

Why don't you do this: you seem pretty well-versed in this. Perhaps you could look over that website, get to know the teachings, and lay out any information you have that would dispute it in an easily accessible place. There should always be room for a counter argument, and part of the difficulty I had in dealing with this was that I could not find one.

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Original post: pmcv

Mikazo, you state.....

Why don't you do this: you seem pretty well-versed in this. Perhaps you could look over that website, get to know the teachings, and lay out any information you have that would dispute it in an easily accessible place. There should always be room for a counter argument, and part of the difficulty I had in dealing with this was that I could not find one.

I am not sure you understand the level of work you are asking of me. Consider this...... There is not only the doctrin of Samael, but also that of Crowley, Theosophy, Sylvia Browne, an various New Age groups that ask the same qustions. My personal understanding is partly academic, but also personal concerning traditional Gnosticism from a more personal perspective. To not be falsely modest, I do think that my own strength here is that there are few people who really understand both aspects and the fact that one cannot be removed from the other in order to be "Gnostic". Still, I can't hope to deal with all of these groups individually and how they may use the terms of Gnosticism.

You are asking me to give special attention to a group that you find interesting, but I find obviously against "Gnostic" thought. If I could give my time to that, I would also have to give my time to Sylvia, and Thelema, and Dan Browne's "DaVinci Code" and the "Jesus Mysteries" of Freke and Gandy, and the teachings of H.P.B. and the Ecclesia Gnostica, and Ms. Eddy. Instead, it is up to the Samael group to come and demonstrate why thier teachings are "Gnostic". I will agree to agree with or counter each point, but I will not simply assume a connection until it is outlined.... FOR ALL THESE GROUPS.

So, instead of waiting for a person to debate the point, maybe you should consider the Gnostic understanding of the Sophia and the Logos and think on your own how this Samael belief might be countered on the levels of the Sophia and the Logos. I understand that you could not find the difference, but you also admitt that you never looked into traditional Gnosticism... so how are you going to find the destinction if you have not even looked into the original movement?

There is no silver spoon here. You have to take some time to look into it yourself as well. I will give you a perspective, but I won't do the work for you. Either bring up specific points, or take some time to develope the Logos in your own life.

PMCV

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Original post: Mikazo

I guess you got me; I was looking for that silver spoon.

I can't justifiably point fingers at anyone given what I know, but I do think it's important to cultivate skepticism and open-mindedness whenever possible.

Thanks for your advice, and input.

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Original post: Ludi

You might try looking for some evidence of any of the things which the Samaelists are preaching, Mikazo. Such as the idea that spilling semen is "bad for the body." Where is the evidence for this? Nocturnal emissions are a natural process of the male physiology and show that it is functioning in a healthy manner. Where is their evidence that such events are bad for the body?

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Original post: Jenfucius

(this is totally off topic and of my opinion only)
Mikazo I would highly recomend you to visit some cult-watch sites and see what they say about feelings of anxiety, sleeplessness, fear etc. (keep in mind some cult watch sites are run by Christian fundamentalists). In my opinion I highly recomend you stay away from his teachings right now. From what you have said it seems your subconcious mind is being influenced and manipulated. Emotions has great impact on the subconcious. The use of fear activates the natural survival mechanism and implants messages into your subconcious.

(This is just my experience) This is from a previous post.
http://www.occultforums.com/showthread.php?t=9828&page=1
When I was around one of the Sameal supporter groups some their claims includes that
- Sameal is an Archangel of the Sun,
- That he was the only man first to have reveal sexual alchemy to the public (by interpreting the hidden meaning behind the Middle ages western alchemy texts and that they were all about sexual alchemy) and all others who tried befor him were killed.
- Lalita(his wife) "Never fell since the Time of Atlantis"
- That UFOs are here to help humanity
- How he teleported a non-believer into hyperspace with him to show him that hyperspace is real
- There was also some matter in regards to predictions that didnt turned out. It was off the mark.
----------------------------------------------------

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Original post: Mikazo

Fear is an effective metaprogramming tool. This was really an excellent way of demonstrating that to myself. After hearing of the possibility of annihilation, I immediately took a new imprint (as Timothy Leary's would say). My view of the world changed dramatically, and looked really bleak. But this was a good exercise in exploring the perceptive capabilites of the metaprogrammer.

All I had to do was look at where my head was at after I got involved in it. The imprint that I took was really unpleasant (and I'll admit some of it is still in my system).

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Original post: Jenfucius

(Not saying anyone is in a cult) (Going off topic abit. To adress your comment.)
Although according to some cult watch groups, cults need to destroy your current reality of the world and replace it with theirs. As a potential danger sign; when you start questioning your own sense of reality your in serious trouble.

(Keep in mind not all cults are religious in nature some are political groups, some are self improvement groups, etc. etc. Unfortunatly many are very psychological and emotional damaging.)

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Original post: frater luciferi

cof cof......don't drink the kool-aide!

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Original post: Horus

SAW... the one who condemns sex magick practices in which the magician ejaculates as evil and black -- without ever really giving a cause *thumbs down*. Methinks perhaps he didn't know the reason himself. If I were you wouldn't be losing any sleep.

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Original post: [Gnostic]a+

this is the intro christmas message of samaels book " Technique for Dissolving the 'I' " ...

the dude who wrote the intro mentions a little about it...

[QUOTE]INTRODUCTION
There are two reasons why the Universal Christian Gnostic Movement is joyful this
Christmas, of the year 1964. Besides the festivities that are being held in the Sumum
Supremum Sanctuarium of the Sierra Nevada, there is also another very important event
being held in the city of Cartagena de Indias, Republic of Colombia. The event held is the
first Gnostic Congress. Many brave representatives of the Gnostic people have gathered
together under the direction of the Avatar of the Aquarian Age, the Venerable Master
Samael Aun Weor.
It was in this same city of Cartagena de Indias that the first cry for political independence
in this country occurred many years ago. In the present day, this country and all of
humanity are under a different type of slavery, which is more binding and more
oppressive than the one that our forefathers were under. Therefore, the Venerable White
Lodge, by means of the Avatar of Aquarius, wants to hand to us the second part of a very
important message regarding these times in which we are living.
We read in the Gospels: â??... Know the Truth, and the Truth shall set you free.â?Â

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Original post: Jenfucius

[QUOTE=frater luciferi]cof cof......don't drink the kool-aide![/QUOTE]I guess thats why you dont see those kool-aide commercials anymore! aaagghhggh (cross eyes, tongue sticking out of the mouth & choking)
They suddenly stopped the commercials after the Jonestown massacre. Coincidence? :roll: :lol:

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Original post: WindigoXXVIII

[QUOTE=Horus]SAW... the one who condemns sex magick practices in which the magician ejaculates as evil and black -- without ever really giving a cause *thumbs down*. Methinks perhaps he didn't know the reason himself. If I were you wouldn't be losing any sleep.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps Samael was influenced by eastern practice, like tao yoga where they believe loss of semen is losing one's vitality and shortening life and lowering immunity to diseases. the energy thats used to ejaculate is supposed to be brought back up through the body and chakras all the way up to the crown chakra and released. Now I dont know if loss of semen is spiritually draining, im female.


As for the 108 beads on the mala, look it up on google and youll find so many other reasons why they have that number, i havent seen a listing about 108 being the limit of incarnations, but a similar meaning that the soul goes through 108 stages on its journey.

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Original post: Jenfucius

Victor Manuel Gomez Rodriguez (aka Sameal, aka Avatar of the New Age, etc) was influence by certain Eastern practices mixed in with Christian fundamentalism etc.

His belief is a woman shouldnt orgasm either. And sex should be passionless (more or less). Nor should people fornicate etc.

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Original post: WindigoXXVIII

[QUOTE=Jenfucius]Victor Manuel Gomez Rodriguez (aka Sameal, aka Avatar of the New Age, etc) was influence by certain Eastern practices mixed in with Christian fundamentalism etc.

His belief is a woman shouldnt orgasm either. And sex should be passionless (more or less). Nor should people fornicate etc.[/QUOTE]
Then this guy does sound pretty gnostic, since sex is part of the debased material world where our spirits are trapped, and that bringing more souls into the world would be 'giving in' to the lesser creation god. Even the influence of eastern practice is old time gnostic, Basilidian gnosticsm especially. These beliefs sure dont sound easy to hold or to practice, but then who said religious life was easy....

I wonder what he means "Avatar of the New age" ?
So far, his work is attractive to me as much as say, the hare krishna movement.
hare krishna!

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Original post: Jenfucius

PMVC is the person you should talk to in regards whether Samael is gnostic or not. He knows more about it than I do.