This is a rather long discussion thread. Discovered and Reposted by Metanoia
Post authors and dates are stated with each post. The entire thread of posts has been reproduced as I found the discussion interesting and thought it a pity to lose this thread.
Ludi
07-06-2004, 10:22 PM
What are Jesus' teachings? Which gospels do you include?
AyinSol
07-06-2004, 10:59 PM
What are Jesus' teachings: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you; love your neighbor as yourself. Basically that's the sum of his work teaching wise. As for Gospels (NT); pretty much everything you find in your "standard" Bible (still coming to terms with Paul) including the Apocrypha as well as the writings of the Nag Hammadi library which, while written x years after his death (as were the other ones for that matter) contain some elements which I feel may have been left out in the editing process.
Ashnook
07-07-2004, 12:01 AM
Jesus taught peace and surching for the divine within yourself. He wasnt that much different from sudatra guatama IMHO.
skye
07-07-2004, 01:44 AM
What are Jesus' teachings: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you; love your neighbor as yourself. Basically that's the sum of his work teaching wise. As for Gospels (NT); pretty much everything you find in your "standard" Bible (still coming to terms with Paul) including the Apocrypha as well as the writings of the Nag Hammadi library which, while written x years after his death (as were the other ones for that matter) contain some elements which I feel may have been left out in the editing process. I agree. And I also agree that Paul takes a bit to come to terms with ... :lol:
But Jesus was also a teacher of forgiveness (as well as love) and I think that that was a large portion of his work also. I suppose in a way they both (love and forgiveness) go hand in hand.
Ludi
07-07-2004, 04:47 AM
Curious to know how you arrived at your conclusions, and why you feel these are the only things he taught.
feranaja
07-07-2004, 06:31 AM
"If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you."
"If those who lead you say to you, 'look, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds will get there first. If they say 'it's in the ocean,' then the fish will get there first. But the Kingdom of God is within you and outside of you. Once you come to know yourselves, you will become known. And you will know that it is you who are the children of the living father."
we all associate the teacings of Christ with his message of love, forgiveness etc. But for me, these ideas are shallow without the above, from the Gospel fo Thomas, which did not make it into the NT, oddly enough. The above quotes show a much more radical, mystical and profound teacher than the nice guy with all the little children flocked around him. His exoteric message needs to be informed by the esoteric.
"No one comes to the father but by me" does not translate as "you better behave or you will be barred from Heaven" although it was used that way as a repressive and controlling social tool. It DOES suggest that unless one makes the inner journey, knows himself deeply and thus comes to see divinity within, there can be no realization of our true nature and we remain estranged from God. And the empathy and undertsanding of Oneness that emanates from this gnosis mandates absolute compassion. One cannot know the divinity and behave cruelly to other living beings. This is how I understand Christ.
Ludi
07-07-2004, 07:19 AM
Thank you for that thoughtful answer, feranaja.
I myself do not think it odd that the Gospel of Thomas didn't make it into the NT. The Gospel of Thomas teaches a much more personal approach to god, and didn't sit well with those who wanted to use Christianity as a device of social control, in my opinion.
Lord Ruthven
07-07-2004, 10:16 AM
If I were to search for the message that Jesus gave I would look in the Bible and ALL the gospels that did not make it in and highlight the actual words he is recorded as speaking.
If there are contradictions then go with the majority verdict or the one that seems to fit better with the rest (any that say, "and then Jesus told us to eat babies alive and spit their bones onto defenceless lepers," is probably going to be wrong, for example).
That, assuming you believe that Jesus really lived at all and wasn't just made up by a bunch of heretic-jews looking for a convieniently dead leader, will give you the true techings of Jesus as we have left to us.
Personally, I haven't embarked on this project yet, but it might be interesting if someone does... you could even publish a "Words of Christ" Bible I suppose.
DestinyEternity
07-07-2004, 12:55 PM
I think too many people have mangled Jesus's words (or translated words) since the NT bible is interpretted by many either in a completely literal fashion or interpretted to serve an oppressive, iron-fisted, hypocritical religion that I don't think Jesus would have been a part of, but then again. I did not know the guy. *lol
Ashnook
07-07-2004, 01:29 PM
feranaja, look in Luke 17:21. Jesus sais there that the kindom of heaven is within you also......but the rest of it is worded a little different than in Thomas's book.
Apsinthion
07-07-2004, 02:06 PM
You may be interested in reading Matthew 12: 31-32 ...
(12:31) Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
(12:32) And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.
Truly, that which goes against the Tao [Holy Ghost?] comes to an early end.
Ludi
07-07-2004, 02:59 PM
Do you have any opinions about Jesus' claim that he brought not peace but a sword? Was he prophesying about what would happen after his death?
What about his charge that one should hate oneself and one's family?
Webgenie
07-07-2004, 03:38 PM
Jesus taught many things; the ones that stand out to me are:
He came to glorify his Father, not himself - this is strongly emphasized in the Bible.
The Kingdom of God is within you.
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.
I don't recall any verse about hating oneself, but as far as hating one's family, my interpretation is that one should follow the dictates of the Spirit within in spite of any conflict with anyone else, whether family or not. God is no respecter of persons/plays no favorites, and when it comes to doing what you know is right, you should be the same way.
Ludi
07-07-2004, 07:22 PM
Please pardon me, my wording was wrong.
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters - yes, even his own life - he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26
"The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life." John 12:25
Ashnook
07-07-2004, 07:46 PM
My personal interpretation of that is you shouldnt delve to much into your physical self, that is to say that your physical self with wither and die in a mere 60 or 70 years...Where as your soul (aka spirit, aka astral body....whatever you want to call it) will be around for eternity and THAT is what you should be trying to improve.
feranaja
07-07-2004, 07:52 PM
The good is preferable to all personal relations"
http://www.tektonics.org/jesussayshate.html
This illuminates and contextualizes the pasage, I think.
fera
Webgenie
07-07-2004, 08:08 PM
It reminds me of the verse that says where a man's treasure lies, his heart lies also. Love and devotion should be toward the spiritual rather than the material (this physical life). Hate does seem like a strong word to use - it sounds very bad to be instructed to hate one's loved ones and one's own life. I personally treasure my loved ones and my life, but since I am not a Christian, I claim exemption from the passages
Ludi
07-07-2004, 10:10 PM
you shouldnt delve to much into your physical self, that is to say that your physical self with wither and die in a mere 60 or 70 years.
Seems like an excellent reason to make the most of it while you can!
pmcv
07-08-2004, 12:11 AM
Well, I am not sure whether to open my mouth here *lol*. I really do try to seperate my personal beliefs from cold hard critical interperatation, but in this area the lines may be a little bit hard to define.
Which Gospels? Get rid of Luke, Use Matthew in teh same way that the Platonic Mysteries used Homer (which is how Matthew was intended) Drop John and use the version of Mark that does not include the added text at the end (which is there only to demonstrate the validity of the Chruch as it later existed) and include the so called "Secret Passages".
Also, Paul is not so hard to reconcile if you only include the 7 authentic works and trash the rest. These are the earliest known works in Christianity, they predate all the "Gospels", of which NONE are the words of "Jesus".
What did Jesus say?
While I don't go so far as Lord Ruthven when he says "That, assuming you believe that Jesus really lived at all and wasn't just made up by a bunch of heretic-jews looking for a convieniently dead leader, will give you the true techings of Jesus as we have left to us." I think that in a way that is essentially the right track.
Jesus is an outline for an initiatory principle, just as "Dante" exists both historically and fictionally.... and the two don't always reconcile. The way to understand "Jesus" is to understand that YOU are the pilgrem, that when you come to embody the Logos as the salvation of the Sophia, you are the human Jesus destined to pay the price for your lover's awakening.
Well, ok, perhaps I have been influenced by the field I try to maintain academic distance from *lol*.
PMCV
feranaja
07-08-2004, 06:43 AM
PMCV
I wonder if you could elaborate on this idea for those not conversant in Gnostic terminology? I think it's a very important idea.
fera
Jesus is an outline for an initiatory principle, just as "Dante" exists both historically and fictionally.... and the two don't always reconcile. The way to understand "Jesus" is to understand that YOU are the pilgrem, that when you come to embody the Logos as the salvation of the Sophia, you are the human Jesus destined to pay the price for your lover's awakening.
atheistme2000
07-09-2004, 06:06 AM
Does anyone know how to get hold of the gospel of St Thomas? Perhaps it is online somewhere but I never found it. The one the church banned because it has new age references in it. I want to dip into the mystical side of what Jesus did and taught and apparently that gospel is quite good at explaining all that stuff which has doubtless been filtered from the four gospels accepted by the church. Does anyone know a good source?
The thing that I like about new age is the onus is on personal development, exploration and experimentation. Now I don't strive for astral travel, TK or anything like that (yet!) but I don't condemn those who are gifted in different areas to myself whilst at the same time striving to enhance my natural abilties. It is an evolutionary process rather than a process whereby one is forced to believe in teachings without proofs. I am skeptical of some of the new age things on here but with experience and experimentation I am beginning to realise that these abilities only need unlocking and harnessing.
The thing that I found really offputting about christianity is the fact that christians are so bigotted and they all think they have the right answer even when they contradict other christians (and other religions) that also claim to be right! Sensible argument would conclude that two religous systems or two ideas that contradict one another cannot possibly be both right, either one is right or they are BOTH WRONG. I have yet to meet a christian who has proved thier beliefs are real. Much of the stuff mentioned here however you can actually experiment with and try for yourself. I am starting to have quite a bit of fun with psi balls (I wish I could make them visible that would be cool but just to make a normal one is quite tiring).
Ludi
07-09-2004, 07:42 AM
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm
Dunhill
07-09-2004, 08:35 AM
I just finished Beyond Belief a few weeks ago. Slow reading as I didn't care for some of Pagels' style. However it does go into great detail comparing it to the Gospel of John and the differing interpretations of Jesus, salvation and the divinity (or lack of) divinity within each person.
'Proving their belief is real' I just found that funny. If anyone could proof their faith as real, wouldn't that eventually mean there would be only one religion?
pmcv
07-09-2004, 09:51 PM
Hey Feranaja
Good point, I do forget that the club is covers a wide base of topics and I should be clear about what I am talking about sometimes.
Let me start that by pointing out to atheistme2000, no, Thomas was not left from accepted scripture because it was "New Age". That term "New Age" did not even exist in the time we are talking about. I would also like to point out that Gnosticism is not simply some early proto New Age system.
However, in Gnosticism the point was not the literal historicity of Jesus. Gnosticism was an initiatory system, and like all initiatory systems one is meant to identify with the primary characters as prototypes for ones own initiation.
In the Gnostic system, the Christ comes to save his lover, the fallen Sophia. This is not done as a blood sacrifice, but by reaquintance with him. (In some cases she has already paid the same price for him in the early days, and he is returning the favor). To the Gnostics, Jesus' teachings are a logical methodology, meant to spark the movement from the psychic to the pneumatic level of awareness.
Before somebody here thinks that this is just a Gnostic spin on an original Christian understanding, consider this.... the ideas here existed before Christianity, and there are reasons to believe that in fact the inverse could be true.... Christianity as we know it is just a dumbing down of Gnostic ideas into a literalization. Well, the academician side of me must now point out that we simply cannot know for sure either way so I am only pointing out that there are two sides to the arguement.
All the same, you simply cannot deal with what Jesus may have taught until you choose which traditional backdrop you feel he fits into.... if he existed.
Ludi
07-09-2004, 09:57 PM
In the Gnostic system,
The thing about the Gnostics, though, is that they all believed different things, did they not? They weren't a monolith like the orthodox Christians (I don't mean Greek orthodox here, of course, I mean those Christians who believed all Christians should believe the same things).
All the same, you simply cannot deal with what Jesus may have taught until you choose which traditional backdrop you feel he fits into.... if he existed.
I'm not sure what you mean by "deal with." Can you explain that? And why do you believe one must choose between interpretations?
pmcv
07-09-2004, 10:47 PM
Hey Ludi....
The thing about the Gnostics, though, is that they all believed different things, did they not? They weren't a monolith like the orthodox Christians
Well, not completely true, but partly. In fact, the so called "Orthodox" Christians were not , and remain not, of one mind. There is striking variation even within a single Chruch. I could take you to a Catholic church here in the town where I live that is mostley filled with white people, and then another that is mostely hispanics, and I think the differences are rather striking. One will preach that saint worship is evil, the other will offer candles to the saints in prayers for thier sick relatives. Of course, you probably meant from a more theological perspective, in which case I am more inclined to agree with your latter point... but not the first one.
It has become common belief amongs the New Age movements that attempt to assimilate some Gnostic ideas that the Gnostics were the poster-children of ecclecticism. This is simply not true. After all, how could you even define a movement as "Gnostic" if there are not some specific qualities used to outline the definition?
There does indeed appear to be a wide range of outlines used in Gnostic systems, and to some extent I admittedly speak in an inaccurate way when I say things like "the Gnostic System". On the other hand, when dealing with core principles it is also not true that they all believed in different things... more often it is just a matter of using variations in imagery that throws the casual reader off the trail.
As to your question of what I meant by "deal with". Well, my point is that if we are talking about "what Jesus taught" then that very phraze assumes some kind of original intention in the communication. While I point out that it may not be so simple as boiling it down to what Jesus in particular taught, I do concede that teachings are initially offered with intended points, as is all communication. If you don't make an attempt to understand the origin of that point, to "deal with" the context in which it grew, then you are not likely to be able to pick out the intended communication.
PMCV
Ludi
07-10-2004, 07:25 AM
Yes, of course, pmcv, I meant from a theological perspective! The whole intention of the orthodox movement was to make Christianity a coherant system in which all Christians would believe the same things.
How can one know the intention simply by deciding which tradition to "believe?" That makes no sense. My belief about what someone intended to communicate may have very little to do with what they actually intended to communicate.
Asimis
07-10-2004, 07:54 AM
I agree with pmcv..Jesus is a prototype..a format of sorts. It is the model that is to be followed to attain salvation, there are other models that can be followed too. Jesus is not to be worshiped or be though of as God..he clearly states this..even in the Gospels.
Ludi
07-10-2004, 09:34 AM
And by "salvation," what do you mean Asimis?
Jesus seems to say his model is the only model to be followed. Is there evidence he believed one could follow another model?
Asimis
07-10-2004, 09:48 AM
And by "salvation," what do you mean Asimis?
To receive the seed and allow it to sow and bear fruit so that we can raise above the archons and enter The Bridal Chamber.
Jesus seems to say his model is the only model to be followed. Is there evidence he believed one could follow another model?
Of course not..It was I who said that there are other models. Jesus always said he was "The Way, The Truth and The Life."
Ludi
07-10-2004, 09:52 AM
Can you explain salvation in plain english, please, Asimis?
You are a silly person if you think what you said is at all understandable. In fact, I think you posted it that way just to be difficult!Asimis
07-10-2004, 10:09 AM
Can you explain salvation in plain english, please, Asimis?
You are a silly person if you think what you said is at all understandable. In fact, I think you posted it that way just to be difficult!The seed is the divine spark that is in all of us..at first it is a little seed..you can see Jesus parable about the seed for a good description..when the seed falls in good ground (within ourselves), it starts sowing and giving fruit by adquiring gnosis/knowledge of our true nature (which is divine). When we are ready we enter The Bridal Chamber (a state of conciousness) in where our Virgin Birth/Resurrection takes place and the Christ is born (see the baptism of Jesus) which is when we raise above the influence of the archons (material existence/influence) and we are no longer in control of the Demiurge.
Go to this topic if you want a more detailed explanation:
Additional topic link removed due to broken link.
Ludi
07-10-2004, 10:13 AM
Thank you! This was one of those cases of the veteran apparently being incapable of communicating with the newbie, but what do you know, you were actually willing to make the effort to explain yourself, and I'm very grateful that you did!
Thanks again!
Asimis
07-10-2004, 10:15 AM
No problem
tigerfu
07-10-2004, 10:01 PM
it would take a long time to tell what all Jesus teaches but basically he wants you too invite him into your heart and ask for forgiveness of your sins and asked to be saved, you cant do this at anytime you want you have to wait until you feel him asking you and if he does ask you, you will know it, once you are saved you are to worship Jesus, do as the bible says and lead others to christ, those are some of the things
PaulS
07-10-2004, 10:11 PM
tigerfu,
After much thought and many years of research this is what I understand.
Jesus was a Jewish rabbi, teaching Jews to follow the way of Yahweh.
PaulS
pmcv
07-11-2004, 12:12 AM
Hey Pauls
Well, of course that is one theory and I will concede you could be correct.... but I have serious doubts about it, Pauls.
I have found that the less we accept the validity of the construction of familiar canon, the less Jewish (in the later thinking anyways) Jesus becomes. By that I don't mean ethnically, we all know that Jesus was from the Jewish culture, but philosophically I don't believe that Judism as we know it today was so codefied... or even fully existant.
Well, that could be a whole other conversation. What is a Jew in the days of Jesus? In order to answer how much Jesus would have been in line with "Jewish" thinking we would first have to answer that I guess.
PMCV
PaulS
07-11-2004, 02:23 AM
The Jews were under the rule of a "pagan" nation - Rome. It was their destiny -by the promise made to Moses- that if they followed the Laws given to Moses by Yahweh they would be a nation among nations. At that time, the Essene Jews were trying to return to the Laws of Moses in order to gain the favor of Yahweh and become the self ruling nation that they believed they were supposed to be. Jesus was taught by John (the baptist - an essenic Jewish tradition of the time) and is considered by most to have been an essene himself. Paul (Saul of Tarsus) is the one who can be credited for starting Christianity and the Council of Nicene is what formed the framework for it. It was then and only then that Jesus was labeled as "divine" and not just a prophet because only God could attone for the sins of all mankind - either he was divine or the religion that was named for him was a mistake.
So circular logic was begun in the Church of Rome.
PaulS
Ludi
07-11-2004, 12:04 PM
I agree with you PaulS.
Tigerfu, where in the Bible does it say to worship Jesus? I'm not remembering that part, and can't find it in my Bible. Maybe you can help me out here.
Thanks.
Asimis
07-11-2004, 12:21 PM
In the same manner that it doesn't says that Jesus is God nor has Jesus claiming to be God but the Son of God.
All of this was agreed upon in the Council of Nicea when Christianity became the official religion.
pmcv
07-12-2004, 12:45 AM
Hey Pauls
Out of curiousity.... what makes you certain that John was not a Sethian instead of an Essene? I am not so much debating the point as wondering about your certainty. It is not true that "most" believe John was an Essene, so I wonder .... from an academic perspective, about the certainty.
Really, my primary pint here is this... not all "Jews" accepted the writings of the "Prophets".
Also, there was one point that you make that was a little confusing to me. Paul created Christianity, probably a good bet. Nicea sealed the form? ALso probably true..... but there is little to connect the two. So, I was not sure if you meant that it was Paul or the Council that outlined the notion of the Divinity of Jesus first. If the latter, then it is false, if the former... well, possibly true. Could you outline for us more exactly what you meant to say there?
PMCV
SAINT
07-12-2004, 07:24 AM
He taught the same as Lucifer, that the god is within. It is us.
`Knock and ye shall find...
Ludi
07-12-2004, 07:28 AM
What "Lucifer" are you refering to, Saint?
SAINT
07-13-2004, 06:16 AM
I refer to the misconception that Satan and Lucifer are the same being in the King James Bible
and yet both Satan and Jesus have been referred to by the "light-bearer" title. Oh Venus you worry the Xians so much through translation. The ways of the dark side are many...
From what i see, though limited, is that the efforts of the Satan mimic what the under current that was in Jesus beliefs, if only in aspects of inner godliness being encouraged.
These apparent opposites had common ground. If we be like them, we shall be as gods.. obvious that the nature of wo/man is to acknowledge self importance and be not discouraged by anothers enforcements or opinions.
Satans "evil" doings are only in the eyes of xians wishing we still had eternal "bliss" in the garden, but they forgot to think of the facts that living forever in the garden where everyday was the same would be its own prison.
The story of Satans encouragement of Eve serves as proof of Satans need to free the ignorant bliss and propel us into our own orbits of discovery. The only "evil" that Satan did to us was offer us an alternative to being starstruck moths around the light, by the gift of "free will" to be our own lights. No bad there from my seat.
Jesus couldve been anything, a Mushroom eating sociopath through to the son of god, but through the hands of the holy script writers, who can trust the text now? or even then for that matter.
When it serves your interests, all men lie.
Ludi
07-13-2004, 07:58 AM
Thank you for explaining. I had actually assumed you meant Satan, but I could not recall any "teachings" of Satan.
Kermit
07-13-2004, 08:45 AM
I know I am coming into this discussion late, but....
Jesus couldve been anything, a Mushroom eating sociopath through to the son of god, but through the hands of the holy script writers, who can trust the text now? or even then for that matter.
Doesn't really say much for your interpretation of how one would be either the same of different. But I can understand where you are coming from.
Satan could be seen as trying to "free our minds". But I guess that would depend on what you are looking for. If your end-game goal is to achieve salvation, well, it kinda changes things then though. Jesus' arrival, and teachings, took place many generations down the road (and a thousand pages or so
). Just sorta feels like reading the first and last page of a novel when you describe it that way.Just my opinion though.
Though I never considered the similarities the way you described them though. Interesting.
As far as other aspects of what Jesus taught. I notice alot of people try to combine literal translation with interpretation. Alot of religions especially. I have personally found that they make much more since when considered one way or the other, but much less when you try to combine the ideas. Just my thoughts.
Ludi
07-13-2004, 12:19 PM
How do you understand the literal meaning of stories told about the teachings of a man who largely taught using parables, which he didn't necessarily explain to everyone? How do you decide what he means "literally" and what he means figuratively?