Original post: Radiant Star
1 Sigillum Dei Ã?meth
I don't consider myself an ultra-rationalist person who screams "Prove it!" at everything, but some abilities magicians claim have never been demonstrated or proven in any way. I'm talking about stuff like levitation, change of physical appearance, and such things. "Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it isn't there", sure, but it would really take me witnessing it personally to believe that such a thing could be done. Do you think this sort of thing is an ego overdrive or delusion or what? I think with the enormous advances in science, there would be SOMEONE with whom scientists could work on to validate such claims.
2 fiat_lux_777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigillum Dei Ã?meth
I don't consider myself an ultra-rationalist person who screams "Prove it!" at everything, but some abilities magicians claim have never been demonstrated or proven in any way.
I'm with you, Sigillum Dei Ã?meth...I don't believe anything until I've seen or experienced it myself - after all, does not Liber AL state "Certainty, not faith"? Faith and belief are the cornerstones of religion, and (IMO) magick and religion are totally different things.
Over the course of time on both this forum and others I have come across individuals claiming all sorts of things - from shooting fireballs to flying, having pet vampires to being "the Chosen One"....whilst I don't doubt that most of these people believe they possess such powers, I also don't believe they exist outside of their headspace.
3 Sigillum Dei Ã?meth
Thank you! You put that in the exact context I'm talking about. I'm aware this is off-topic but I want to get a specifically Thelemic viewpoint on this question:
If you have a personal experience that concretes your knowledge of gods, do you think one should run with it? I'm not talking about enslaving yourself, that makes no sense. But if you find beauty and inner happiness with devotion or adoration, what do you think of this friend?
I think I should state, however, that faith has a powerful part in the spiritual journey. HOWEVER, I think faith is a means rather than an end in itself. For example, one may have faith in a certain deity, but I would say it's a temporary construct until you experience your god directly. Any views?
4 fiat_lux_777
Quote:
I think I should state, however, that faith has a powerful part in the spiritual journey. HOWEVER, I think faith is a means rather than an end in itself. For example, one may have faith in a certain deity, but I would say it's a temporary construct until you experience your god directly. Any views?
Well, I guess this is open to individual opinion...personally, I ascribe to the "Method of Science, the AIM of Religion" school-of-thought - I believe the aim of religion is pure spirituality, whereas religion (and faith) in and of themselves fall short of this mark. But this is just a personal view. To me, magick is about Gnosis, which has nothing to do with belief, but knowledge, experience and understanding (in that particular order).
Quote:
If you have a personal experience that concretes your knowledge of gods, do you think one should run with it? I'm not talking about enslaving yourself, that makes no sense. But if you find beauty and inner happiness with devotion or adoration, what do you think of this friend?
Great question - and a tricky one. This is where the virtue of discrimination comes into play, and why I feel it is so important for aspiring magicians to make haste slowly and master the basics before jumping in too deep. Without a sound basis in this power of the Sphinx, one is likely to ascribe more importance to certain experiences than they deserve. I think Crowley once stated something along these lines (i.e. It is important not to place too much importance in the success or otherwise of contacting various deities - I believe he was referring to ascribing too much importance to a personal, subjective experience - mind you, this is the same fella who launched Liber Al on the world after communicating with a praeter-human intelligence! heh he).
I think the single most important practice in magick is self-evaluation. If you receive a vision, test it. Analyse it. And don't think for a second that just because something is subjectively true that it makes it objectively true. Our visions, impressions etc are filtered through our subconscious, which often has its own personal agenda (at least until we reach a certain level of development). This is where "the method of science" comes in - we have to be able to analyse as clinically as possible any and every event, determine its worth, and utilise or discard accordingly. This especially comes into play when one takes initiation oaths such as "I will interpret every phenomena as a particular dealing with God and my Soul".
5 DeviouZ
Hmmm... sometimes I've thought about things like this, I do genuinely believe that levitation and stuff is possible... I agree with you guys also when stating that such a thing is not true until I experience it, but I see it as at least a very likely hypothesis. but the funny thing one always hears is of the typical story where some 'whacko' announces he can levitate, or live on no food but air, or some other way out ability, and then immediately fails once there are observers to see.
To me, this seems like it could be some kind of phenomenon of the observer affecting the observed. It's a common theory that we are affected by the people's negative beliefs and prejudices who know about our activities, this being the reason for the Cardinal rule of Silence. Obviously, it's also linked with Quantum Theory and stuff like that as well. I know this is stretching a bit far, but it doesn't seem unlikely to me that if one were able to levitate with all the might of his Will, he could quite easily fail if he were to be affected by the Wills of the observers who stare on in stark disbelief. And who knows, maybe it's some kinda Divine Providence thing too, you get given this ability, it could as easily be taken away if you were to go on some kinda damaging ego-trip like telling everybody so you can bask in glorification.
Seems like there are too many reports of it being possible from the true Adepts to discount it off-hand. Aleister Crowley and Franz Bardon both asserted in no uncertain terms that such things were possible. There have also been numerous Yogis I've read who've stated the same things as well, not just that, but that these abilities are inevitable on the Yoga path to Enlightenment.
6 Ludi
I'd take anything AC had to say with a truckload of salt, he was quite the kidder!
The problem with personal experience or gnosis is that by definition it is subjective. If you can't share it with another person, it can not be verified as objective reality. I believe subjective reality and objective reality are two different forms of reality, myself. If I have an experience, that does not make it "real" in an objective sense simply because I've had it. It may be real to me, but not to another person. Science in general avoids the problem of subjective reality by insisting on transparency and peer review, two things which don't exist in magickal practice as far as I can tell.
7 I AM
I am one who has always said "Prove it"; the original "Doubting Thomas". I am also one who now has enough years and experience to say that anything is possible.
When I was young in Magick I felt the need to prove myself. I would demonstrate for others sometimes. These others came to know that there was something to Magick because of what I showed them. However, I learned from this.
There was a movie called "Blade Runner" in which an Android talked about the wonders of the Universe he had seen and yet had none to share it with. That is my experience with Magick. I have seen and experienced things in Magick that I could not possibly relate to others. I have known wonder and joy. I have been where others have only dreamed. I learned from this as well.
Once you have been there and done that you realize that only those who have also been there will truly understand what you have experienced. Others will either not believe or will be unable to comprehend. Few will accept your experiences at face value.
I have also learned that people who believe you have capability will ask you to do things for them. Constantly. We can see evidence of this in these Forums. And the asking never stops. Governments are no different. Those that can do Magick WOULD be and have been used by Governments as well. If you have true capability people and Governments will attempt to use you. Because of this, as I have grown older the adage "Be Silent" has become a part of my life.
I have reached a point where I have nothing to prove and no one to share it with. These Forums are the only time I have ever shared anything. I can remain a "face" on the Forums and am among friends. Now, more than ever, I feel that there are others like me out there. Because of this I feel free to share some of what I have learned. And the membership makes it easy to do so. They do not judge me and accept my contributions.
However, members will notice that while I share my Magick and what little I have learned I rarely share experiences. These experiences would lose MUCH in the telling and I could not do them justice. These experiences are such that many cannot be expressed, only felt and absorbed.
These are just some thoughts. I do not care if Science EVER accepts Magick. That is not what I am about. My Magick is my growth and what yardstick could we measure that by? To me, Magick IS my life. I live it every day. That is enough. That, and these Forums.
I am in no way trying to sound egotistical. If it comes across this way I apologize.
8 GeNoCyDe
Great post I AM! things to think about.
9 Caradoc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigillum Dei Ã?meth
Thank you! You put that in the exact context I'm talking about. I'm aware this is off-topic but I want to get a specifically Thelemic viewpoint on this question...
Well I'm a Thelemite though I don't think that necessarily qualifies my response as a Thelemic one
To the original question of abilities: To me this question is fairly redundant. Many people come to the forums and claim to shoot fireballs from their hands, or levitate, or a host of other bizarre things - I don't care whether it is true or not. I find it highly unlikely, though not impossible, but the main point is that none of these 'abilities' has anything to do with Magick as I see it. Magick is a spiritual practice and I can see no spiritual advantage in being able to shoot fireballs from my hands in the 'real world'. The magician may well develop certain abilities, as do yogis, but these are to be ignored as stumbling-blocks on the spiritual path. They are mere side-effects and not important to the magician.
Many people come to magic with these side-effects as their one goal: some find the real magical path by accident and stick to it; some find their original aims unattainable and quit, complaining that magic is all hokum; some find the true magical path, follow it until they manifest these side-effects, and then cast the true path aside to play with 'fireballs', thus swelling the ranks of the Black Lodge.
I really don't believe these 'abilities' are available to anyone who cannot follow the path of spiritual evolution at least part-way, so I lean toward disbelief when any 15 year old kid comes in claiming to be naturally talented in magic and already able to manifest real-world fireballs: that's not magick, it's pointless, and if you can really do it why do you need to shout about it?
This is just my point of view but, as a Thelemite, it's all I have
10 I AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caradoc
...The magician may well develop certain abilities, as do yogis, but these are to be ignored as stumbling-blocks on the spiritual path. They are mere side-effects and not important to the magician.
...Many people come to magic with these side-effects as their one goal: some find the real magical path by accident and stick to it; some find their original aims unattainable and quit, complaining that magic is all hokum; some find the true magical path, follow it until they manifest these side-effects, and then cast the true path aside to play with 'fireballs', thus swelling the ranks of the Black Lodge.
...I really don't believe these 'abilities' are available to anyone who cannot follow the path of spiritual evolution at least part-way...
...that's not magick, it's pointless, and if you can really do it why do you need to shout about it?
Said much better than I did. Congratulations on a great post.
11 Ashnook
Quote:
Originally Posted by I AM
Because of this, as I have grown older the adage "Be Silent" has become a part of my life.
I think all of us as magickians have to learn this the hard way....sometimes more than once. Example A: When I first got into magick my catholic aunt had found one of my occult books.....go figure it was Waittes's "The book of black magick". After it was all said and done about 300 dollars worth of stuff was burned. Example B: About 4 months ago I was discussing one of my evokations with one of my sisters....another one of my sisters started saying I was crazy, etc, etc and begged to be part of the evokation. That didnt go so well. So I think I may have finally learned my lesson. If you dont want to believe in something I say then so be it....I really dont care.
12 Frater Manjet
I view abilities as signposts and tools but are indeed mere side effects of attainment. I see their primary function as that of distraction. (IMO) Those that become obsessed with an ability as their goal are doomed to fail in the grand scheme. They may indeed learn how to launch fireballs after a lifetime of dedication and work, but to what end.
If I may quote myself " Each obstacle is merely a potential achievement, and every achievement another potential obstacle".
I as well, in my earlier days, would perform simple "parlour tricks" (as I now see them ) to amuse and impress others. I have also fallen prey to being swayed from the "Great Work" by my abilities.
As to the credibility of some abilities? I have been in occult circles most of my life. It seems that every time I think I have heard the most outlandish claim imaginable another whopper rears up. That being said I have witnessed some amazing feats that are documentable. I have personally watched people pierce themselves with no bleeding or visible wound afterwards. There are also many documented cases of other abilities (no, not the bouncing Fakir ) that science at this time cannot explain.
I was just watching on TV a Kung Fu master who was challenged to be kicked in the jewels as hard as possible. I somehow doubt that this man spent a lifetime of training and discipline merely for the sake of not being effected by a boot to the Jimmies. It is but an ability along with many others that come of his discipline. His mastery of his Chi (goal) merely enables such feats (side effects)
13 Horus
I think a healthy amount of doubt is good. I've never seen levitation, therefore I don't just blindly believe that it's possible... however I don't have a nagging doubt in my mind when I ponder on the possibility... I just accept that I don't know and I'm satisfied with that. I didn't think it was possible for a human to cause an [big] effect with another human directly with "energy" either, until I experienced it. You'd think scientists could prove this too. Oh well. I'm satified with "maybe".
14 Ludi
Science can only "prove" what it has the instruments to study. If it has no instruments with which to study magick, it can not "prove" its existence. And because there is no rapport between scientists and magickians, it's not likely these instruments will be developed.
15 Radiant Star
Quote:
Once you have been there and done that you realize that only those who have also been there will truly understand what you have experienced. Others will either not believe or will be unable to comprehend. Few will accept your experiences at face value â?? I AM
Quote:
"Be Silent" - I AM
I think the above quotes will have lots of us nodding our heads.
I am in no way an adept in magick and at my age of starting, it is highly unlikely that I ever will be, however, during the course of my spiritual journey prior to this, I came to realise that I had experienced many things that either I could not explain because there were no words for them or if I did manage to get the general feel of it across, the other person had not been there and would either look blank or consider it to be a different thing from what I was trying to share, occasionally, I would read something and realise that it was the same as my experience, but it was rare; maybe people felt that they were too special to share or they doubted that they would be taken seriously, who knows?
As for being silent, I was told by a Tarot reader to keep quiet about my path and by my being to be careful about sharing and ironically, the more I travel and the more interesting it gets, the less I want to tell. I think the only times I have shared a few things have been if I have felt that there were others who may need either a confirmation or inspiration to continue.
I am not sure that it makes sense to me to experience things that are inexplicable as we are brought up to tell stories, relate our experiences and to make sense of our world using language, but it really is as I AM has said.
PS: IT doesnâ??t sound egotistical to me at all I AM, just factual
16 Rin Daemoko
Well, one must ask why one would go online, or make use of some other form of media to boast about their abilities. What would it get them? Attention, certainly. An ego boost, definately.
Would it help them to become a better person? Probably not.
If someone starts jumping up and down, screaming that they can levitate, or light candles with their thoughts, I have to ask: "Why should I care?" I'm sure that to some people, their abilites are very real. In that sense, since people create their own realities, their abilities are real. However, when the same abilities are filtered through my own perceptions, they become less valid. They falter and fray and become nonsense.
Your Mac isn't compatible with my Windows. Our realities clash. I can't accept yours, and you can't accept mine. We can use "screen captures" to look at each other's realities, but we'll never truly accept or understand them.
Again, though, for me it all boils down to relevance. Why should I care? How is the ability to bend spoons conducive to the good and benefit of anyone?
17 Thalassa
I also think and believe that Anything Is Possible. I mean anything. Of course I wont blindly believe everything I hear but I wont ever say you cant have done this or that. Some people may have done these rare things and have the need to show them off. Some may havent and just claim that they have. In either case I dont think it's nice to scream this out. Although I havent seen many people coming here and claming to have done those rare things. There are times that you should be silent and keep what you have to yourself. I dont care if science accepts or proves these.
Also I dont think magick is just spiritual growth. When you do a love spell, you use magick. Where's the growth in this? Magick can be and is used to satisfy one's ego. And should be.
18 Eliphas
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigillum Dei Ã?meth
If you have a personal experience that concretes your knowledge of gods, do you think one should run with it? I'm not talking about enslaving yourself, that makes no sense. But if you find beauty and inner happiness with devotion or adoration, what do you think of this friend?
I will echo fiat_lux_777 and say that one should never mistake a subjective experience (magickal or otherwise) for objective truth. "Truth" is by definition subjective, what means something to you may mean nothing to me...or not.
As to the subject of "ability obsession", I believe that this is merely egotism at work. Why else would someone spend an inordinate amount of time and energy developing what are essentially "parlor tricks" that have little or no practical application in the "real world"? Particularly when the same "result" can be achieved (if it is your "Will") by using other means. "It is much simpler to look for an existing force, in good working order, that is doing the sort of stuff that you need , and take from it, or control in it, just that bit of it that you happen to require." And honestly, what good is a bent spoon anyway?
"Such powers are never to be considered as the main object; it ought in fact to be obvious from the start that any one's True Will must be deeper and more comprehensive than any mere technical achievement." - Aleister Crowley
Ability Obsession
Ability Obsession
This is something that Radiant Star saved from one of the many hacks.
Just increased the size of the letters and edited it a bit, to allow people to read it.
1 Sigillum Dei Ã?meth
I don't consider myself an ultra-rationalist person who screams "Prove it!" at everything, but some abilities magicians claim have never been demonstrated or proven in any way. I'm talking about stuff like levitation, change of physical appearance, and such things. "Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it isn't there", sure, but it would really take me witnessing it personally to believe that such a thing could be done. Do you think this sort of thing is an ego overdrive or delusion or what? I think with the enormous advances in science, there would be SOMEONE with whom scientists could work on to validate such claims.
2 fiat_lux_777
Over the course of time on both this forum and others I have come across individuals claiming all sorts of things - from shooting fireballs to flying, having pet vampires to being "the Chosen One"....whilst I don't doubt that most of these people believe they possess such powers, I also don't believe they exist outside of their headspace.
3 Sigillum Dei Ã?meth
Thank you! You put that in the exact context I'm talking about. I'm aware this is off-topic but I want to get a specifically Thelemic viewpoint on this question:
If you have a personal experience that concretes your knowledge of gods, do you think one should run with it? I'm not talking about enslaving yourself, that makes no sense. But if you find beauty and inner happiness with devotion or adoration, what do you think of this friend?
I think I should state, however, that faith has a powerful part in the spiritual journey. HOWEVER, I think faith is a means rather than an end in itself. For example, one may have faith in a certain deity, but I would say it's a temporary construct until you experience your god directly. Any views?
4 fiat_lux_777
I think the single most important practice in magick is self-evaluation. If you receive a vision, test it. Analyse it. And don't think for a second that just because something is subjectively true that it makes it objectively true. Our visions, impressions etc are filtered through our subconscious, which often has its own personal agenda (at least until we reach a certain level of development). This is where "the method of science" comes in - we have to be able to analyse as clinically as possible any and every event, determine its worth, and utilise or discard accordingly. This especially comes into play when one takes initiation oaths such as "I will interpret every phenomena as a particular dealing with God and my Soul".
5 DeviouZ
Hmmm... sometimes I've thought about things like this, I do genuinely believe that levitation and stuff is possible... I agree with you guys also when stating that such a thing is not true until I experience it, but I see it as at least a very likely hypothesis. but the funny thing one always hears is of the typical story where some 'whacko' announces he can levitate, or live on no food but air, or some other way out ability, and then immediately fails once there are observers to see.
To me, this seems like it could be some kind of phenomenon of the observer affecting the observed. It's a common theory that we are affected by the people's negative beliefs and prejudices who know about our activities, this being the reason for the Cardinal rule of Silence. Obviously, it's also linked with Quantum Theory and stuff like that as well. I know this is stretching a bit far, but it doesn't seem unlikely to me that if one were able to levitate with all the might of his Will, he could quite easily fail if he were to be affected by the Wills of the observers who stare on in stark disbelief. And who knows, maybe it's some kinda Divine Providence thing too, you get given this ability, it could as easily be taken away if you were to go on some kinda damaging ego-trip like telling everybody so you can bask in glorification.
Seems like there are too many reports of it being possible from the true Adepts to discount it off-hand. Aleister Crowley and Franz Bardon both asserted in no uncertain terms that such things were possible. There have also been numerous Yogis I've read who've stated the same things as well, not just that, but that these abilities are inevitable on the Yoga path to Enlightenment.
6 Ludi
I'd take anything AC had to say with a truckload of salt, he was quite the kidder!
The problem with personal experience or gnosis is that by definition it is subjective. If you can't share it with another person, it can not be verified as objective reality. I believe subjective reality and objective reality are two different forms of reality, myself. If I have an experience, that does not make it "real" in an objective sense simply because I've had it. It may be real to me, but not to another person. Science in general avoids the problem of subjective reality by insisting on transparency and peer review, two things which don't exist in magickal practice as far as I can tell.
7 I AM
I am one who has always said "Prove it"; the original "Doubting Thomas". I am also one who now has enough years and experience to say that anything is possible.
When I was young in Magick I felt the need to prove myself. I would demonstrate for others sometimes. These others came to know that there was something to Magick because of what I showed them. However, I learned from this.
There was a movie called "Blade Runner" in which an Android talked about the wonders of the Universe he had seen and yet had none to share it with. That is my experience with Magick. I have seen and experienced things in Magick that I could not possibly relate to others. I have known wonder and joy. I have been where others have only dreamed. I learned from this as well.
Once you have been there and done that you realize that only those who have also been there will truly understand what you have experienced. Others will either not believe or will be unable to comprehend. Few will accept your experiences at face value.
I have also learned that people who believe you have capability will ask you to do things for them. Constantly. We can see evidence of this in these Forums. And the asking never stops. Governments are no different. Those that can do Magick WOULD be and have been used by Governments as well. If you have true capability people and Governments will attempt to use you. Because of this, as I have grown older the adage "Be Silent" has become a part of my life.
I have reached a point where I have nothing to prove and no one to share it with. These Forums are the only time I have ever shared anything. I can remain a "face" on the Forums and am among friends. Now, more than ever, I feel that there are others like me out there. Because of this I feel free to share some of what I have learned. And the membership makes it easy to do so. They do not judge me and accept my contributions.
However, members will notice that while I share my Magick and what little I have learned I rarely share experiences. These experiences would lose MUCH in the telling and I could not do them justice. These experiences are such that many cannot be expressed, only felt and absorbed.
These are just some thoughts. I do not care if Science EVER accepts Magick. That is not what I am about. My Magick is my growth and what yardstick could we measure that by? To me, Magick IS my life. I live it every day. That is enough. That, and these Forums.
I am in no way trying to sound egotistical. If it comes across this way I apologize.
8 GeNoCyDe
Great post I AM! things to think about.
9 Caradoc
To the original question of abilities: To me this question is fairly redundant. Many people come to the forums and claim to shoot fireballs from their hands, or levitate, or a host of other bizarre things - I don't care whether it is true or not. I find it highly unlikely, though not impossible, but the main point is that none of these 'abilities' has anything to do with Magick as I see it. Magick is a spiritual practice and I can see no spiritual advantage in being able to shoot fireballs from my hands in the 'real world'. The magician may well develop certain abilities, as do yogis, but these are to be ignored as stumbling-blocks on the spiritual path. They are mere side-effects and not important to the magician.
Many people come to magic with these side-effects as their one goal: some find the real magical path by accident and stick to it; some find their original aims unattainable and quit, complaining that magic is all hokum; some find the true magical path, follow it until they manifest these side-effects, and then cast the true path aside to play with 'fireballs', thus swelling the ranks of the Black Lodge.
I really don't believe these 'abilities' are available to anyone who cannot follow the path of spiritual evolution at least part-way, so I lean toward disbelief when any 15 year old kid comes in claiming to be naturally talented in magic and already able to manifest real-world fireballs: that's not magick, it's pointless, and if you can really do it why do you need to shout about it?
This is just my point of view but, as a Thelemite, it's all I have
10 I AM
11 Ashnook
12 Frater Manjet
I view abilities as signposts and tools but are indeed mere side effects of attainment. I see their primary function as that of distraction. (IMO) Those that become obsessed with an ability as their goal are doomed to fail in the grand scheme. They may indeed learn how to launch fireballs after a lifetime of dedication and work, but to what end.
If I may quote myself " Each obstacle is merely a potential achievement, and every achievement another potential obstacle".
I as well, in my earlier days, would perform simple "parlour tricks" (as I now see them ) to amuse and impress others. I have also fallen prey to being swayed from the "Great Work" by my abilities.
As to the credibility of some abilities? I have been in occult circles most of my life. It seems that every time I think I have heard the most outlandish claim imaginable another whopper rears up. That being said I have witnessed some amazing feats that are documentable. I have personally watched people pierce themselves with no bleeding or visible wound afterwards. There are also many documented cases of other abilities (no, not the bouncing Fakir ) that science at this time cannot explain.
I was just watching on TV a Kung Fu master who was challenged to be kicked in the jewels as hard as possible. I somehow doubt that this man spent a lifetime of training and discipline merely for the sake of not being effected by a boot to the Jimmies. It is but an ability along with many others that come of his discipline. His mastery of his Chi (goal) merely enables such feats (side effects)
13 Horus
I think a healthy amount of doubt is good. I've never seen levitation, therefore I don't just blindly believe that it's possible... however I don't have a nagging doubt in my mind when I ponder on the possibility... I just accept that I don't know and I'm satisfied with that. I didn't think it was possible for a human to cause an [big] effect with another human directly with "energy" either, until I experienced it. You'd think scientists could prove this too. Oh well. I'm satified with "maybe".
14 Ludi
Science can only "prove" what it has the instruments to study. If it has no instruments with which to study magick, it can not "prove" its existence. And because there is no rapport between scientists and magickians, it's not likely these instruments will be developed.
15 Radiant Star
I am in no way an adept in magick and at my age of starting, it is highly unlikely that I ever will be, however, during the course of my spiritual journey prior to this, I came to realise that I had experienced many things that either I could not explain because there were no words for them or if I did manage to get the general feel of it across, the other person had not been there and would either look blank or consider it to be a different thing from what I was trying to share, occasionally, I would read something and realise that it was the same as my experience, but it was rare; maybe people felt that they were too special to share or they doubted that they would be taken seriously, who knows?
As for being silent, I was told by a Tarot reader to keep quiet about my path and by my being to be careful about sharing and ironically, the more I travel and the more interesting it gets, the less I want to tell. I think the only times I have shared a few things have been if I have felt that there were others who may need either a confirmation or inspiration to continue.
I am not sure that it makes sense to me to experience things that are inexplicable as we are brought up to tell stories, relate our experiences and to make sense of our world using language, but it really is as I AM has said.
PS: IT doesnâ??t sound egotistical to me at all I AM, just factual
16 Rin Daemoko
Well, one must ask why one would go online, or make use of some other form of media to boast about their abilities. What would it get them? Attention, certainly. An ego boost, definately.
Would it help them to become a better person? Probably not.
If someone starts jumping up and down, screaming that they can levitate, or light candles with their thoughts, I have to ask: "Why should I care?" I'm sure that to some people, their abilites are very real. In that sense, since people create their own realities, their abilities are real. However, when the same abilities are filtered through my own perceptions, they become less valid. They falter and fray and become nonsense.
Your Mac isn't compatible with my Windows. Our realities clash. I can't accept yours, and you can't accept mine. We can use "screen captures" to look at each other's realities, but we'll never truly accept or understand them.
Again, though, for me it all boils down to relevance. Why should I care? How is the ability to bend spoons conducive to the good and benefit of anyone?
17 Thalassa
I also think and believe that Anything Is Possible. I mean anything. Of course I wont blindly believe everything I hear but I wont ever say you cant have done this or that. Some people may have done these rare things and have the need to show them off. Some may havent and just claim that they have. In either case I dont think it's nice to scream this out. Although I havent seen many people coming here and claming to have done those rare things. There are times that you should be silent and keep what you have to yourself. I dont care if science accepts or proves these.
Also I dont think magick is just spiritual growth. When you do a love spell, you use magick. Where's the growth in this? Magick can be and is used to satisfy one's ego. And should be.
18 Eliphas
As to the subject of "ability obsession", I believe that this is merely egotism at work. Why else would someone spend an inordinate amount of time and energy developing what are essentially "parlor tricks" that have little or no practical application in the "real world"? Particularly when the same "result" can be achieved (if it is your "Will") by using other means. "It is much simpler to look for an existing force, in good working order, that is doing the sort of stuff that you need , and take from it, or control in it, just that bit of it that you happen to require." And honestly, what good is a bent spoon anyway?
"Such powers are never to be considered as the main object; it ought in fact to be obvious from the start that any one's True Will must be deeper and more comprehensive than any mere technical achievement." - Aleister Crowley
Just increased the size of the letters and edited it a bit, to allow people to read it.
1 Sigillum Dei Ã?meth
I don't consider myself an ultra-rationalist person who screams "Prove it!" at everything, but some abilities magicians claim have never been demonstrated or proven in any way. I'm talking about stuff like levitation, change of physical appearance, and such things. "Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it isn't there", sure, but it would really take me witnessing it personally to believe that such a thing could be done. Do you think this sort of thing is an ego overdrive or delusion or what? I think with the enormous advances in science, there would be SOMEONE with whom scientists could work on to validate such claims.
2 fiat_lux_777
I'm with you, Sigillum Dei Ã?meth...I don't believe anything until I've seen or experienced it myself - after all, does not Liber AL state "Certainty, not faith"? Faith and belief are the cornerstones of religion, and (IMO) magick and religion are totally different things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigillum Dei Ã?meth
I don't consider myself an ultra-rationalist person who screams "Prove it!" at everything, but some abilities magicians claim have never been demonstrated or proven in any way.
Over the course of time on both this forum and others I have come across individuals claiming all sorts of things - from shooting fireballs to flying, having pet vampires to being "the Chosen One"....whilst I don't doubt that most of these people believe they possess such powers, I also don't believe they exist outside of their headspace.
3 Sigillum Dei Ã?meth
Thank you! You put that in the exact context I'm talking about. I'm aware this is off-topic but I want to get a specifically Thelemic viewpoint on this question:
If you have a personal experience that concretes your knowledge of gods, do you think one should run with it? I'm not talking about enslaving yourself, that makes no sense. But if you find beauty and inner happiness with devotion or adoration, what do you think of this friend?
I think I should state, however, that faith has a powerful part in the spiritual journey. HOWEVER, I think faith is a means rather than an end in itself. For example, one may have faith in a certain deity, but I would say it's a temporary construct until you experience your god directly. Any views?
4 fiat_lux_777
Well, I guess this is open to individual opinion...personally, I ascribe to the "Method of Science, the AIM of Religion" school-of-thought - I believe the aim of religion is pure spirituality, whereas religion (and faith) in and of themselves fall short of this mark. But this is just a personal view. To me, magick is about Gnosis, which has nothing to do with belief, but knowledge, experience and understanding (in that particular order).Quote:I think I should state, however, that faith has a powerful part in the spiritual journey. HOWEVER, I think faith is a means rather than an end in itself. For example, one may have faith in a certain deity, but I would say it's a temporary construct until you experience your god directly. Any views?
Great question - and a tricky one. This is where the virtue of discrimination comes into play, and why I feel it is so important for aspiring magicians to make haste slowly and master the basics before jumping in too deep. Without a sound basis in this power of the Sphinx, one is likely to ascribe more importance to certain experiences than they deserve. I think Crowley once stated something along these lines (i.e. It is important not to place too much importance in the success or otherwise of contacting various deities - I believe he was referring to ascribing too much importance to a personal, subjective experience - mind you, this is the same fella who launched Liber Al on the world after communicating with a praeter-human intelligence! heh he).Quote:
If you have a personal experience that concretes your knowledge of gods, do you think one should run with it? I'm not talking about enslaving yourself, that makes no sense. But if you find beauty and inner happiness with devotion or adoration, what do you think of this friend?
I think the single most important practice in magick is self-evaluation. If you receive a vision, test it. Analyse it. And don't think for a second that just because something is subjectively true that it makes it objectively true. Our visions, impressions etc are filtered through our subconscious, which often has its own personal agenda (at least until we reach a certain level of development). This is where "the method of science" comes in - we have to be able to analyse as clinically as possible any and every event, determine its worth, and utilise or discard accordingly. This especially comes into play when one takes initiation oaths such as "I will interpret every phenomena as a particular dealing with God and my Soul".
5 DeviouZ
Hmmm... sometimes I've thought about things like this, I do genuinely believe that levitation and stuff is possible... I agree with you guys also when stating that such a thing is not true until I experience it, but I see it as at least a very likely hypothesis. but the funny thing one always hears is of the typical story where some 'whacko' announces he can levitate, or live on no food but air, or some other way out ability, and then immediately fails once there are observers to see.
To me, this seems like it could be some kind of phenomenon of the observer affecting the observed. It's a common theory that we are affected by the people's negative beliefs and prejudices who know about our activities, this being the reason for the Cardinal rule of Silence. Obviously, it's also linked with Quantum Theory and stuff like that as well. I know this is stretching a bit far, but it doesn't seem unlikely to me that if one were able to levitate with all the might of his Will, he could quite easily fail if he were to be affected by the Wills of the observers who stare on in stark disbelief. And who knows, maybe it's some kinda Divine Providence thing too, you get given this ability, it could as easily be taken away if you were to go on some kinda damaging ego-trip like telling everybody so you can bask in glorification.
Seems like there are too many reports of it being possible from the true Adepts to discount it off-hand. Aleister Crowley and Franz Bardon both asserted in no uncertain terms that such things were possible. There have also been numerous Yogis I've read who've stated the same things as well, not just that, but that these abilities are inevitable on the Yoga path to Enlightenment.
6 Ludi
I'd take anything AC had to say with a truckload of salt, he was quite the kidder!
The problem with personal experience or gnosis is that by definition it is subjective. If you can't share it with another person, it can not be verified as objective reality. I believe subjective reality and objective reality are two different forms of reality, myself. If I have an experience, that does not make it "real" in an objective sense simply because I've had it. It may be real to me, but not to another person. Science in general avoids the problem of subjective reality by insisting on transparency and peer review, two things which don't exist in magickal practice as far as I can tell.
7 I AM
I am one who has always said "Prove it"; the original "Doubting Thomas". I am also one who now has enough years and experience to say that anything is possible.
When I was young in Magick I felt the need to prove myself. I would demonstrate for others sometimes. These others came to know that there was something to Magick because of what I showed them. However, I learned from this.
There was a movie called "Blade Runner" in which an Android talked about the wonders of the Universe he had seen and yet had none to share it with. That is my experience with Magick. I have seen and experienced things in Magick that I could not possibly relate to others. I have known wonder and joy. I have been where others have only dreamed. I learned from this as well.
Once you have been there and done that you realize that only those who have also been there will truly understand what you have experienced. Others will either not believe or will be unable to comprehend. Few will accept your experiences at face value.
I have also learned that people who believe you have capability will ask you to do things for them. Constantly. We can see evidence of this in these Forums. And the asking never stops. Governments are no different. Those that can do Magick WOULD be and have been used by Governments as well. If you have true capability people and Governments will attempt to use you. Because of this, as I have grown older the adage "Be Silent" has become a part of my life.
I have reached a point where I have nothing to prove and no one to share it with. These Forums are the only time I have ever shared anything. I can remain a "face" on the Forums and am among friends. Now, more than ever, I feel that there are others like me out there. Because of this I feel free to share some of what I have learned. And the membership makes it easy to do so. They do not judge me and accept my contributions.
However, members will notice that while I share my Magick and what little I have learned I rarely share experiences. These experiences would lose MUCH in the telling and I could not do them justice. These experiences are such that many cannot be expressed, only felt and absorbed.
These are just some thoughts. I do not care if Science EVER accepts Magick. That is not what I am about. My Magick is my growth and what yardstick could we measure that by? To me, Magick IS my life. I live it every day. That is enough. That, and these Forums.
I am in no way trying to sound egotistical. If it comes across this way I apologize.
8 GeNoCyDe
Great post I AM! things to think about.
9 Caradoc
Well I'm a Thelemite though I don't think that necessarily qualifies my response as a Thelemic oneQuote:
Originally Posted by Sigillum Dei Ã?meth
Thank you! You put that in the exact context I'm talking about. I'm aware this is off-topic but I want to get a specifically Thelemic viewpoint on this question...
To the original question of abilities: To me this question is fairly redundant. Many people come to the forums and claim to shoot fireballs from their hands, or levitate, or a host of other bizarre things - I don't care whether it is true or not. I find it highly unlikely, though not impossible, but the main point is that none of these 'abilities' has anything to do with Magick as I see it. Magick is a spiritual practice and I can see no spiritual advantage in being able to shoot fireballs from my hands in the 'real world'. The magician may well develop certain abilities, as do yogis, but these are to be ignored as stumbling-blocks on the spiritual path. They are mere side-effects and not important to the magician.
Many people come to magic with these side-effects as their one goal: some find the real magical path by accident and stick to it; some find their original aims unattainable and quit, complaining that magic is all hokum; some find the true magical path, follow it until they manifest these side-effects, and then cast the true path aside to play with 'fireballs', thus swelling the ranks of the Black Lodge.
I really don't believe these 'abilities' are available to anyone who cannot follow the path of spiritual evolution at least part-way, so I lean toward disbelief when any 15 year old kid comes in claiming to be naturally talented in magic and already able to manifest real-world fireballs: that's not magick, it's pointless, and if you can really do it why do you need to shout about it?
This is just my point of view but, as a Thelemite, it's all I have
10 I AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caradoc
...The magician may well develop certain abilities, as do yogis, but these are to be ignored as stumbling-blocks on the spiritual path. They are mere side-effects and not important to the magician.
...Many people come to magic with these side-effects as their one goal: some find the real magical path by accident and stick to it; some find their original aims unattainable and quit, complaining that magic is all hokum; some find the true magical path, follow it until they manifest these side-effects, and then cast the true path aside to play with 'fireballs', thus swelling the ranks of the Black Lodge.
...I really don't believe these 'abilities' are available to anyone who cannot follow the path of spiritual evolution at least part-way...
Said much better than I did. Congratulations on a great post....that's not magick, it's pointless, and if you can really do it why do you need to shout about it?
11 Ashnook
I think all of us as magickians have to learn this the hard way....sometimes more than once. Example A: When I first got into magick my catholic aunt had found one of my occult books.....go figure it was Waittes's "The book of black magick". After it was all said and done about 300 dollars worth of stuff was burned. Example B: About 4 months ago I was discussing one of my evokations with one of my sisters....another one of my sisters started saying I was crazy, etc, etc and begged to be part of the evokation. That didnt go so well. So I think I may have finally learned my lesson. If you dont want to believe in something I say then so be it....I really dont care.Quote:
Originally Posted by I AM
Because of this, as I have grown older the adage "Be Silent" has become a part of my life.
12 Frater Manjet
I view abilities as signposts and tools but are indeed mere side effects of attainment. I see their primary function as that of distraction. (IMO) Those that become obsessed with an ability as their goal are doomed to fail in the grand scheme. They may indeed learn how to launch fireballs after a lifetime of dedication and work, but to what end.
If I may quote myself " Each obstacle is merely a potential achievement, and every achievement another potential obstacle".
I as well, in my earlier days, would perform simple "parlour tricks" (as I now see them ) to amuse and impress others. I have also fallen prey to being swayed from the "Great Work" by my abilities.
As to the credibility of some abilities? I have been in occult circles most of my life. It seems that every time I think I have heard the most outlandish claim imaginable another whopper rears up. That being said I have witnessed some amazing feats that are documentable. I have personally watched people pierce themselves with no bleeding or visible wound afterwards. There are also many documented cases of other abilities (no, not the bouncing Fakir ) that science at this time cannot explain.
I was just watching on TV a Kung Fu master who was challenged to be kicked in the jewels as hard as possible. I somehow doubt that this man spent a lifetime of training and discipline merely for the sake of not being effected by a boot to the Jimmies. It is but an ability along with many others that come of his discipline. His mastery of his Chi (goal) merely enables such feats (side effects)
13 Horus
I think a healthy amount of doubt is good. I've never seen levitation, therefore I don't just blindly believe that it's possible... however I don't have a nagging doubt in my mind when I ponder on the possibility... I just accept that I don't know and I'm satisfied with that. I didn't think it was possible for a human to cause an [big] effect with another human directly with "energy" either, until I experienced it. You'd think scientists could prove this too. Oh well. I'm satified with "maybe".
14 Ludi
Science can only "prove" what it has the instruments to study. If it has no instruments with which to study magick, it can not "prove" its existence. And because there is no rapport between scientists and magickians, it's not likely these instruments will be developed.
15 Radiant Star
Quote:
Once you have been there and done that you realize that only those who have also been there will truly understand what you have experienced. Others will either not believe or will be unable to comprehend. Few will accept your experiences at face value â?? I AM
I think the above quotes will have lots of us nodding our heads.Quote:
"Be Silent" - I AM
I am in no way an adept in magick and at my age of starting, it is highly unlikely that I ever will be, however, during the course of my spiritual journey prior to this, I came to realise that I had experienced many things that either I could not explain because there were no words for them or if I did manage to get the general feel of it across, the other person had not been there and would either look blank or consider it to be a different thing from what I was trying to share, occasionally, I would read something and realise that it was the same as my experience, but it was rare; maybe people felt that they were too special to share or they doubted that they would be taken seriously, who knows?
As for being silent, I was told by a Tarot reader to keep quiet about my path and by my being to be careful about sharing and ironically, the more I travel and the more interesting it gets, the less I want to tell. I think the only times I have shared a few things have been if I have felt that there were others who may need either a confirmation or inspiration to continue.
I am not sure that it makes sense to me to experience things that are inexplicable as we are brought up to tell stories, relate our experiences and to make sense of our world using language, but it really is as I AM has said.
PS: IT doesnâ??t sound egotistical to me at all I AM, just factual
16 Rin Daemoko
Well, one must ask why one would go online, or make use of some other form of media to boast about their abilities. What would it get them? Attention, certainly. An ego boost, definately.
Would it help them to become a better person? Probably not.
If someone starts jumping up and down, screaming that they can levitate, or light candles with their thoughts, I have to ask: "Why should I care?" I'm sure that to some people, their abilites are very real. In that sense, since people create their own realities, their abilities are real. However, when the same abilities are filtered through my own perceptions, they become less valid. They falter and fray and become nonsense.
Your Mac isn't compatible with my Windows. Our realities clash. I can't accept yours, and you can't accept mine. We can use "screen captures" to look at each other's realities, but we'll never truly accept or understand them.
Again, though, for me it all boils down to relevance. Why should I care? How is the ability to bend spoons conducive to the good and benefit of anyone?
17 Thalassa
I also think and believe that Anything Is Possible. I mean anything. Of course I wont blindly believe everything I hear but I wont ever say you cant have done this or that. Some people may have done these rare things and have the need to show them off. Some may havent and just claim that they have. In either case I dont think it's nice to scream this out. Although I havent seen many people coming here and claming to have done those rare things. There are times that you should be silent and keep what you have to yourself. I dont care if science accepts or proves these.
Also I dont think magick is just spiritual growth. When you do a love spell, you use magick. Where's the growth in this? Magick can be and is used to satisfy one's ego. And should be.
18 Eliphas
I will echo fiat_lux_777 and say that one should never mistake a subjective experience (magickal or otherwise) for objective truth. "Truth" is by definition subjective, what means something to you may mean nothing to me...or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigillum Dei Ã?meth
If you have a personal experience that concretes your knowledge of gods, do you think one should run with it? I'm not talking about enslaving yourself, that makes no sense. But if you find beauty and inner happiness with devotion or adoration, what do you think of this friend?
As to the subject of "ability obsession", I believe that this is merely egotism at work. Why else would someone spend an inordinate amount of time and energy developing what are essentially "parlor tricks" that have little or no practical application in the "real world"? Particularly when the same "result" can be achieved (if it is your "Will") by using other means. "It is much simpler to look for an existing force, in good working order, that is doing the sort of stuff that you need , and take from it, or control in it, just that bit of it that you happen to require." And honestly, what good is a bent spoon anyway?
"Such powers are never to be considered as the main object; it ought in fact to be obvious from the start that any one's True Will must be deeper and more comprehensive than any mere technical achievement." - Aleister Crowley