Original post: Mannun
I have gotten my hands on this book by Margaret Murray written in 1921. To me it has a plethora of interesting information found within supposedly obtained from Witches throughout history and from many different countries. There are tons of quotes from witches being questioned by the authorities and each time a reference at the bottom of the page shows where to find this information yourself, which most everything you would have to go to a particular church/library of history in that particular country and have a translator available. Anyways, this book gives tons of confirmation of alot of the Wiccan practices of today, i.e. working in circles, a degree system, an entire chapter of The Man in Black or Summoner, The Sabbats celebrated and how, Initiations & Elevations etc etc. In the past Margaret Murray was discredited with her fidings, however I do believe that was because of the day and age she was discredited. What are some of you alls thoughts on her findings now?? For those who have never seen or heard of this old book just Google the title and you can read a PDF version of it.
Witch Cult in Western Europe
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Original post: nechesh
When i read her God of the Witches (1933) i was fairly unimpressed and thought some of her conclusions were pretty off-base. But that was years ago and maybe i should give her another shot.
When i read her God of the Witches (1933) i was fairly unimpressed and thought some of her conclusions were pretty off-base. But that was years ago and maybe i should give her another shot.
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Original post: nechesh
Here is a link to a Wiki article on Murray which discusses some of her research shortcomings as well as some of her supporters.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Murray
Here is a link to a Wiki article on Murray which discusses some of her research shortcomings as well as some of her supporters.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Murray
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Original post: Serpentarius
As I remmeber her reasearch and facts were OK - it was her conclusion that there was some unified cult/tradition that has been criticised. Pagans had a huge pantheon of local and regional gods/goddesses - some were big/famous and therefore know and celebrated widely - whereas they might also be worshiping the tree at the end of their meadow. I think she saw there being some prechristian matriachial society of high preistesses - whereas most historians beleive those early pre cristian days were very violent/tribal/feudal and the culture would be differ from tribe to tribe valley by valley - so any notion of a "unified/common" tradition is extremley unlikely.
As I remmeber her reasearch and facts were OK - it was her conclusion that there was some unified cult/tradition that has been criticised. Pagans had a huge pantheon of local and regional gods/goddesses - some were big/famous and therefore know and celebrated widely - whereas they might also be worshiping the tree at the end of their meadow. I think she saw there being some prechristian matriachial society of high preistesses - whereas most historians beleive those early pre cristian days were very violent/tribal/feudal and the culture would be differ from tribe to tribe valley by valley - so any notion of a "unified/common" tradition is extremley unlikely.
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Original post: I.N.R.I.
Ha, I was just thinking about this today.
I think most modern anthropologists are at odds with Murray's conclusion. I have never read the book myself, so I'm not really in any position to make up my mind on the matter.
It's obvious nearly every pre-christian culture had some sort of shamanism/witchcraft tradition from their legends, but whether this had any overlap and continuity is kind of vague.
Ha, I was just thinking about this today.
I think most modern anthropologists are at odds with Murray's conclusion. I have never read the book myself, so I'm not really in any position to make up my mind on the matter.
It's obvious nearly every pre-christian culture had some sort of shamanism/witchcraft tradition from their legends, but whether this had any overlap and continuity is kind of vague.
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Original post: Winnipeg1919
The inclusion of reference citations in Murray's book is not at all unusual for an academic work, in fact it is required to be taken seriously. Much of what is contained and referenced by Murray has been superseded by more recent archaeology, anthropology, and religious studies. Her conclusions are not viewed as supported by the evidence.
It is this lack of scientific method that tarnished her reputation in later years.
You have your time line reversed. Gardner created Wiccan practises after Murray's book was published. His Witchcraft Today and The Meaning of Witchcraft both contain numerous references to Murray's work.Mannun;340041 wrote:I have gotten my hands on this book by Margaret Murray written in 1921. To me it has a plethora of interesting information found within supposedly obtained from Witches throughout history and from many different countries. There are tons of quotes from witches being questioned by the authorities and each time a reference at the bottom of the page shows where to find this information yourself, which most everything you would have to go to a particular church/library of history in that particular country and have a translator available. Anyways, this book gives tons of confirmation of alot of the Wiccan practices of today, i.e. working in circles, a degree system, an entire chapter of The Man in Black or Summoner, The Sabbats celebrated and how, Initiations & Elevations etc etc.
The inclusion of reference citations in Murray's book is not at all unusual for an academic work, in fact it is required to be taken seriously. Much of what is contained and referenced by Murray has been superseded by more recent archaeology, anthropology, and religious studies. Her conclusions are not viewed as supported by the evidence.
Your conclusion is quite wrong. Margaret Murray had a very good reputation as an Egyptologist. Contrary to modern Wiccan legend, The Witch-Cult In Western Europe was actually quite well received. It was the first work to apply the rigours of Anthropology to a subject that previously been the purvue of folk-lorists and occults. Her later works (3 more) did damage to this reputation by taking her theories further than the evidence could support.Mannun;340041 wrote:In the past Margaret Murray was discredited with her fidings, however I do believe that was because of the day and age she was discredited. What are some of you alls thoughts on her findings now?? For those who have never seen or heard of this old book just Google the title and you can read a PDF version of it.
It is this lack of scientific method that tarnished her reputation in later years.