Marduk and Jesus

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Original post: jabbi

Are there any stories of Marduk being captured, whipped, killed and buried in a mountain with guardians in front of the grave?

Or in other words: Is Marduk the proto-type of the suffering christ?

Thanks

from Jabbi

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Original post: Rend Sever

Anything's possible, but I am unable to find any info that closely equates him to the Christ character. Apparently Marduk's story is actually familiar to Zeus' though.

I've always found the most closely drawn proto-type, if you will, of Christ to be Horus.

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Original post: Ashnook

Jesus relates alot to Enki in terms of some of their respective symbols as well as their attitudes toward humanity. Jesus and his journey through death and rebirth is first mentioned in history in the tablets concerning Inanna's decent through the Underworld. The cross was also first representative of Utu, also known as Shammash. Those are some generalities of where to start when making comparisons between the heavenly Sumerian Gods and Jesus.

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Original post: High Priest Enki

Enki despises Jesus and the christian religion after what it has done to slander his name actually

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Original post: Ashnook

Enki despises Jesus and the christian religion after what it has done to slander his name actually

Enki is the embodiment of selflessness, so is Jesus. Enki is represented as a fish, so is Jesus. Enki is regarded as the savior of mankind, so is Jesus. Both deities are regarded in their respective followers as being Champion deities, deities who suffered and strived with only the betterment of mankind in mind. Most religions are very similiar .

If you choose to buy into the ever so present anti-Christian rhetoric so famous among our circles that is fine, but please do not speak on behalf of a God.

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Original post: Always Lost

lol does he now. (directed toward enki)

Horus is similar to Jesus only in that there fathers were gods.
Osiris is the resurection god in Egyptian myth. Horus was a means to this.
So I guess 2 things Sacrafice and there Fathers.
But horus went about things differently.

But one could say Horus and Moses were alike due to there hiding at birth also.

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Original post: High Priest Enki

im talking about the christian aspect and the fact that christianity put enki in the guise of satan, etc etc, enki represents the water bearer, aquarius not a fish, enki represents knowledge, jesus represents actions, enki and jesus are not alike and I was not referring to the prior faiths jesus was based on, just the christian religion which spent its time labelling the gods as demons and demening them, i have spoken with enki, my title is as a high priest of enki, the christian religion is despised by the older gods, always has been, they slander their names, spread their lies and plagerise claiming it as their own, please do not reference enki to jesus, it is sickening
Enki wishes to help humanity and is saddened when put in the image christianity puts him in and after the years of horrors, murders and disgusting events that christianity has performed he does not wish to be looked at in the same light as the so called son of god whos message spread murderous rampages as the inquisition and the crusades, the dark ages with its suppression and murders of anyone different...yes i am sure a selfless being wants to be looked at in the same light as that vulgar cult of christianity

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Original post: GarageMage

"Enki despises Jesus and the christian religion after what it has done to slander his name actually"
I doubt this. Enki may despise people that fall into the blind, ignorant form of christianity has taken on many accounts, but I believe that Yeshuah's message isn't christianity(well, yes and no, alot of things were fuckled with and its all depending on the church that teaches it and how the priest percieves the writings)

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Original post: Always Lost

im talking about the christian aspect and the fact that christianity put enki in the guise of satan, etc etc, enki represents the water bearer, aquarius not a fish, enki represents knowledge, jesus represents actions, enki and jesus are not alike and I was not referring to the prior faiths jesus was based on, just the christian religion which spent its time labelling the gods as demons and demening them, i have spoken with enki, my title is as a high priest of enki, the christian religion is despised by the older gods, always has been, they slander their names, spread their lies and plagerise claiming it as their own, please do not reference enki to jesus, it is sickening
Enki wishes to help humanity and is saddened when put in the image christianity puts him in and after the years of horrors, murders and disgusting events that christianity has performed he does not wish to be looked at in the same light as the so called son of god whos message spread murderous rampages as the inquisition and the crusades, the dark ages with its suppression and murders of anyone different...yes i am sure a selfless being wants to be looked at in the same light as that vulgar cult of christianity

Did anyone even worship Enki or sumerian gods back then?
I thought it was roman, greek, egyptian (i know some isis statues were made into mary) and celtic gods that were demonized.

Wasnt Zoroaster big around mesopotamia back then?

Is there any evidence that Enki was even a big religion back then.
Im not saying it wasnt but im open minded if you have the evidence.

And seriously why do you think it was called the Holy Roman Empire. They were more conserned with bringing back Rome than anything else. Hell Rome killed and tortured those who didnt follow there empire. Then they tag on Christianity and everyone forgets who they were.
Blame the people who did the killing not the religion they adopted as there face.

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Original post: Anathema_Oracle

I like the links people make in symbolism between religions. I'd venture that you can find such similarities owing to the fact that people were familiar with the themes that attach to the deity and substituting or inverting the roles of some was a lot easier than hammering 'new' concepts of a God into people's brains.

Christianity, in its more powerful incarnation, arose from a syncretic pagan empire whose inhabitants were very familiar with certain deities from Egypt to Persia to the Levant. Im not sure if the Marduk myth is directly linked to christianity but similar allegories for redemption, transfiguration and salvation are recurrent themes to people of the Mediterranean and near east.

I don't understand what the interest in the Jesus figure is, except that many people come from christian backgrounds and in rejecting their previous faith can't discard the main character.

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Original post: Thodin

As far as I am concerned Marduk would chew and spit out the Christ .Christ ia usurper to all the old ones and other deities.THOR

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Original post: Ninus

[QUOTE=Anathema_Oracle;324471]I don't understand what the interest in the Jesus figure is, except that many people come from christian backgrounds and in rejecting their previous faith can't discard the main character.[/QUOTE]

Good call!

Perhaps it is the human need for the 'spiritual hero within'? Just a guess.

The same goes for 'demons' and 'angels'. The popularity of this heirarchy even among 'non-christians' baffles me.

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Original post: Raziel.AE

J always reminds me of Tammuz really... Though some people say he and Marduk are the same, others go on to tie Jesus' story to Inanna's... Oh well, I don't know much of those old gods, so blah :p

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Original post: Odin

I saw a documentary once saying how similar Jesus' story is to that of Mithras, a Roman God. Can't remember any of the similarities though

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Original post: Sharandarikali

Mithraism would have taken over the world had Christianity not, probably a good thing it didn't...humans being how they are...

It's not the teacher's fault really. Well, to some extent it is...

Marduk is not similar to Jesus at all, not by Christian definition, however some of his words are a little suspect, it may be his Father was similar to Marduk...

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Original post: Noctiluca Moonfly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWvKMlSAqco

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Original post: TelecultPower

No offence gentleman but the Necronomicon is fiction made by HP Lovecraft and although those characters sound like a fictional version of the goetia, they probablly work in theory do to thought forms charging them up. Hell, I hear people are evoking cartoons these days and making servitors out of Mickey Mouse. Christ aka Yeheshua is charged by far more thought forms as He is mentioned world wide and is sometimes thought to have actually been the Archangel Metatron which in the Qabalah is the lesser YHVH. So in turn I think Christ would win. Christ just came here to infuse compassion and teachings of love but actually holds a far more divine power. HP Lovecrafts type writer versus a divine master also known as the Son of God..hmm?? I'll put my money on any goetia deity also to smash any Necronomicon deity hahaha Infact pretty much any demon could take out the whole crew.

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Original post: TelecultPower

Jesus = real person with documented miracles
Marduk = fictional character from HP Love crafts type writer.

Should we put money on Buddha and a character from a John Grisham novel next? heh

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Original post: MatthewK

[QUOTE=TelecultPower;341715]Marduk = fictional character from HP Love crafts type writer.[/QUOTE]

So you're saying an author of fiction created the ziggurats, the seven principle cities, the Enuma Elish (which was discovered in a temple that had been buried beneath the shifting sands of Arabia for about 4,000 years)? That an author of horror fiction (H.P. Lovecraft in this case) also must've invented ancient Sumer, Assyria, and Akkadia too? By the above statement I take it that you also mean to imply Lovecraft was responsible for Tiamat, Hubur, Anshar, Kishar, Anu, Enlil, Enki?

I suggest you read some Lovecraft before making this statement, and I also suggest you read some Sumerian, Babylonian, etc. materials and discover for yourself who and what Lord Marduk is. Hell, you should probably go back to 6th grade social studies class. I remember spending a whole month on studies of ancient civilization in middle school, and our primary focuses were ancient Egypt, Rome, Greece, and Mesopotamia.

In short, H.P. Lovecraft has nothing to do with the gods and goddesses of Mesopotamia, which has long been considered the possible "cradle of civilization": these gods are among the first we have records of. The title "Necronomicon" is of spurious origin.

The Gods of ancient Sumer, however, are not. Marduk was certainly not invented by H.P. Lovecraft. You, sir, are sorely lacking factual data to back up your "theory", and there is a mountain of evidence that you are talking (or in this case writing) out of your a$$. If you spend a few minutes on Google reading through the archaeological data and evidence that shows the veracity of my previous statements and still feel some doubt (LOL), turn on the f#!king history channel or pick up a book about ancient civilizations and read.

I'm sorry for such an aggressive post, but for someone to come on a UBB and imply that Marduk was made up by H.P. Lovecraft shows that this person sorely needs a history lesson... existence of or faith in him notwithstanding.

Judging from your posts you seem to place great faith in Christ, so I'm assuming you've read the Bible and know that Merodach is mentioned numerous times therein. And that Merodach is, according to that same Bible, a Babylonian god. Hmmmm... Merodach. Marduk. Merodach. Marduk. Sound similar? Well, maybe someone just made up the Bible too!

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Original post: Anathema_Oracle

http://www.digital-brilliance.com/necron/necron.htm

Internets is resourceful.

Is it the case perhaps, that the incomplete but well documented historical record we have of Mesopotamian culture, overwhelmingly tablets dealing with economic matters, but some great accounts like the Epic of Gilgamesh and the Sumerian king lists as well as biblical references, diplomatic documents, legal codes like that of Hammurabi and other bits and pieces that were unearthed were fictionalised and that is where the confusion arises?

While there were real cultures that believed in these beings, the advent or renewed interest in these cultures, literally buried for millenia, spurned a type of reconstructed view of beings nobody had worshipped for the aforementioned thousands of years?

Marduk comes from myths associated with the Babylonians, the jews were in Exile in Babylon around 600B.C. It's why there exists a Talmud Bavli. It isn't impossible to assume this informed their worldview somewhat.

Fast forward to the time of Jesus, some had returned a couple hundred years previous, much was learned from that time, the link may exist, maybe?

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Original post: MatthewK

Yeah, dude, but that doesn't explain why someone would state H.P. Lovecraft (or one of his peers) invented Marduk :eh: Unless of course they've never read any Lovecraft, the Enuma Elish, or world history.

Also, the Necronomicon anti-FAQ is primarily concerned with the "Dee Necronomicon", which does not mention Marduk: while it is structured after the Simon Nec, its contents are almost 50/50 Lovecraft and Enochiana. The Simon Nec, which is the topic of most heated debates, is very much concerned with Marduk and other ancient gods of Sumer, Akkadia and Babylon.

There's a strong link between Turner's "R'lyeh Text" and the "Dee Necronomicon" (hint ), and the bulk of evidence behind this statement can be found by reading both texts in their entirety and comparing writing style, ritualization, sigils, and researching the entities / powers / forces called upon in those books. The Dee Necronomicon and Turner's R'lyeh Text both mix chaos and planetary sigil magick with heavy doses of bastardized Enochian and Lovecraftian names.

The Simon Necronomicon does not utilize Enochian. Most of its contents seem to predate Dee and Kelly.

Additionally, the name Abdul Alhazred is never mentioned in the Simon Necronomicon, and neither is Damascus. The name Abdul Ben-Martu is, however - and the town Bet Durrabia. (another hint )

As is usually the case, numerous books taking the same title are confused and what results is chaos and disagreement. The Simon Necronomicon does not claim to be the same text mentioned by Lovecraft in his stories. The use of the name CUTHALU which appears in this text is ambiguous, meaning "dweller of Cutha", which, as anyone who's done their research knows, is the city of the dead. This is just one example.

Anyone who wants to know the truth will find it - if not, they may be less inclined to speak or write about it lest they reveal their lack of scientific research and clinical detachment from the subject (which is the only way in which a valid and accurate assessment can be made).

Again, equating Marduk with Dee, Turner, Lovecraft, Tyson (as an example), whoever else, does not sit well with me without examining his original source: Sumer. And Anathema Oracle, you are exactly right that their worldview must've been impacted rather heavily by the Babylonian influence...

which is why the original statement garnered such an agitated reply from me.

Edit: I hate to edit this post to add anything else, but I'd just like to chime in with my personal opinion on the OP's question. When Tiamat raised Hubur, Nammtar, Akrabu, etc. against Anu, Enlil and Enki to wage battle, it was Marduk who Enki called upon. Enki called upon his son, fearing defeat at the hands of the primordial gods, and it was Marduk who blinded Tiamat and cleaved her in two. This is a decidedly one-sided battle in which Marduk smashed the primordial creatrix serpent goddess Tiamat.

In short there are none who could capture Marduk... save for the mortal, Sarpanitu, who he took as his wife.

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Original post: Anathema_Oracle

Also, the Necronomicon anti-FAQ is primarily concerned with the "Dee Necronomicon", which does not mention Marduk: while it is structured after the Simon Nec, its contents are almost 50/50 Lovecraft and Enochiana. The Simon Nec, which is the topic of most heated debates, is very much concerned with Marduk and other ancient gods of Sumer, Akkadia and Babylon.

I posted it in the wrong Nec thread, there are for some reason...a lot of them.

Regardless, it's only been a very recent convention to start linking seemingly disparate myths and cultural nuances.

Anthropology and Archaeology seem to be the likely culprits, as are trailblazers like Jung and that guy who wrote "The golden Bough" whose name escapes me this minute.

Going back to the Necronomicon(s). Is it unusual for people who write these texts to use sources so ancient, and dubious, as to render them both esteemed and inscrutable?

I think what is interesting, is not so much how accurate the source material is, but how valid is the content.

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Original post: TelecultPower

The legends that most of you Necronomicon buffs base their
faith and beliefe in by Lovecraft may indeed have a factual
historical entity to losely base things off of. However,
Merodach aka Marduk which may indeed just symbolize Mars
is based on fictional encounters depicted by a horror story novelist
who has admitted to making up the sigils and the system so in most part
to add to his stories at the time. I don't doubt it works. So to make
myself clear, I don't deny the real Merodach existed as I know of Babylon
but I do deny that the Marduk told by Lovecraft exists in it's entirety
as the author himself has passed his own works off as a fictional
magick system that exists only to help his stories; thus making
the thought forms and system designed in it as pseduo occultism.

So you see I am not disagreeing with you that the ancient Merodach
or Marduk is powerful and exists by decree of the Babylonians but
the one that is written about in the pages of Lovecraft holds fictional
status. Just as there are real stories of St. Nicholas the good
patront saint who was generous to the needy and there is this hollywood
version of Santa Clause, do you see my point? Now as to whether the
ancient being Marduk could kill Christ, I still put my money on Christ
since I believe Christ is actually the archangel Metatron who is the
lesser YHVH in the talimud and ruler of this solar system and all laws
within it and sits next in command to the monolithic God and would have
actually been in existance far before the creation of the earth and Babylon.
In the Talimud it is said Metatron received 70 firey lashes when Elyshia
bowed before him as mistakening Him as actually being God. This being told
I also base my assumption on the power of metatron off ancient writings.

I hope that clears up my point of view a little more and lets us focus on
the fighting stats more clearly rather then fictional or non fictional and
historical points.

Good points though!

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Original post: MatthewK

Actually, you're totally wrong again. Marduk was never written about by Lovecraft. And he does not correspond to Mars. In the planetary system of correspondence from Sumer and Babylon the god of war, or Mars, was Nergal. Marduk was given the sphere of Jupiter. He's a Jovian god, you might say a Babylonian Zeus.

Again, Lovecraft never wrote about the Mesopotamian deities. And the Necronomicon of which you speak, which borrows older sigils and has original ones created by the author, is not the Necronomicon which is concerned with the gods of Mesopotamia at all. You have obviously not read all of the books calling themselves "Necronomicon", and thus your repeated posts are doing nothing but showing how little you actually know about any religion except Christianity.

This does not surprise me and there's certainly NOTHING wrong with being a Christian. However, before you start talking about other religions you should at least do some research instead of believing what you read on the internet, because it's about as reliable as what you read in the Bible.

@ Anathema_Oracle: I noticed :eh: Wonder what's going on with that...

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Original post: Anathema_Oracle

Not to sound too ignorant, but the evidence of the Simon Necronomicon being as old as is purported doesn't seem to be made out. I will admit I have little interest in the Necs but I do like ancient history and have a cursory understanding of it.

Also, a simple google search shows that Lovecraft used Marduk in his fantasy novel as well.

I'm not sure what your position is MatthewK, are you claiming that any of these Necronomicons are actually as old as implied by the authors?