Michael W Ford

[Serenitydawn]

I just downloaded a bunch of books of his, and some other recommended books of Order of Phosphorous. Has anybody read them? Or tried the rituals and such?

[TheSeeker]

I forget which one of his books it was exactly, but I had a gander a few years back.
I put it down shortly after I got to the 'say The Lord's Prayer' backwards' thing.
I felt it came across as kind of childish, and so I lost interest.

Incidentally, I think I must be a bit dyslexic as I keep reading his name as Michael F.Word. [greensmile]

[entropic]

I forget which one of his books it was exactly, but I had a gander a few years back.
I put it down shortly after I got to the 'say The Lord's Prayer' backwards' thing.
I felt it came across as kind of childish, and so I lost interest.

Incidentally, I think I must be a bit dyslexic as I keep reading his name as Michael F.Word. [greensmile]

Now now, one should show sympathy for those that need to make up for years and years of being exposed to rabid xtians no matter where they turn.. personally I think its funny but I can see how it might be needed for others.

Something tells me you weren't very interested to begin with ,)

[Serenitydawn]

[lol] I pick and choose what to use. I have nothing to do with any prayer, but some of the other stuff looks interesting. I do see the point if you were brainwashed as a child by christian parents, you would need that. My parents didn't get around to brainwashing me, though they regret it now. [rofl] [lol]

[TheSeeker]

Something tells me you weren't very interested to begin with ,)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Is this a past life thing? [lol] [eek]

My parents didn't get around to brainwashing me, though they regret it now. [rofl] [lol]

Mine were Socialists --in the less radical, North American sense-- so my upbringing was completely areligious.
I'm 49 and I've never once sat through an entire Christian sermon of any variety, so it's not about sensitivity.
It was more like it felt to me like he was trying to play on people's insecurity, and that's why I said it seemed childish;
to me there is a sort of 'Double-dog-Dare-You' aspect to it.

[Serenitydawn]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Is this a past life thing? [lol] [eek]

Past life???

My parents didn't get around to brainwashing me, though they regret it now. [rofl] [lol]

Mine were Socialists --in the less radical, North American sense-- so my upbringing was completely areligious.
I'm 49 and I've never once sat through an entire Christian sermon of any variety, so it's not about sensitivity.
It was more like it felt to me like he was trying to play on people's insecurity, and that's why I said it seemed childish;
to me there is a sort of 'Double-dog-Dare-You' aspect to it.

That's what I meant, you may not need it and I don't need it, but if you were brought up in a very christian household it would serve a purpose. If that was what you heard every day growing up, hearing it backwards would have meaning for you.

[entropic]

Something tells me you weren't very interested to begin with ,)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Is this a past life thing? [lol] [eek]

My parents didn't get around to brainwashing me, though they regret it now. [rofl] [lol]

Mine were Socialists --in the less radical, North American sense-- so my upbringing was completely areligious.
I'm 49 and I've never once sat through an entire Christian sermon of any variety, so it's not about sensitivity.
It was more like it felt to me like he was trying to play on people's insecurity, and that's why I said it seemed childish;
to me there is a sort of 'Double-dog-Dare-You' aspect to it.

Øhh, if you say so. I just meant it doesn't sound like your thing from what I've read of it.

Also I remember you had about the same upbringing as me, its why I pointed out that we might not understand that others have more issues with xtians. I'm not sure how insecurity has anything to do with it and I have NO idea what you mean with "double-dog-whatever", never heard that expression before.

[ElectroConvulsiveJeremy]

I'm waiting for a couple of Fords books - apparently there's elements of the Order of Nine Angles in there and also Chumbley - both being sources of information I have found to be very interesting. It appears Ford is very much a love it or hate it (or marmite as I would say) kind of author in Satanic circles.
What's your opinion on the ones you've read?

[Nahemah]

...It appears Ford is very much a love it or hate it (or marmite as I would say) kind of author in Satanic circles.

Agreed.

I personally do see the need for rites of blasphemy and for theatricality in ritual that comes from Ford's work.

It can be a great relief to the previously indoctrinated when they cast off the chains of indoctrinated ideology and DON'T get divinely retributed for it.I think it's a necessary and vital step for many.

I haven't used any of his workings but I enjoyed reading about them and of the Order itself.

[Serenitydawn]

I'm waiting for a couple of Fords books - apparently there's elements of the Order of Nine Angles in there and also Chumbley - both being sources of information I have found to be very interesting. It appears Ford is very much a love it or hate it (or marmite as I would say) kind of author in Satanic circles.
What's your opinion on the ones you've read?

So far I'm liking what I'm reading. And I looked at some of the ONA stuff as well, and they do seem similar. I found a sight where I downloaded a ton of books, mostly his. I'll post the link. http://thepiratebay.se/torrent/7611359/ ... Phosphorus_[Michael_W._Ford It's a torrent, but there were over 60 documents on here. Some are short, there is a Luciferian Sorcery and Set-Typhon that I naturally had to read first. It's only 10 pages, but it's really good. I would recommend his stuff from what I've read so far. [thumbup]

I personally do see the need for rites of blasphemy and for theatricality in ritual that comes from Ford's work.

Yeah I think for a lot of people it's essential. [grin]

[sunas]

I must say i really enjoyed the bible of the adversary from him..even though i havent really tried anything from there..just read it for knowledge nothing more..

[Serenitydawn]

yeah I do that too [grin] Knowledge is power after all. [eg]

[sunas]

After a book i've read i say this, there was once Adam and Eve. They were upon a decision that would make mankind as it is, or as we have never seen it ( or maybe some do ) Either take a fruit from the tree of life or take a fruit from the tree of knowledge..
They took from the tree of knowledge...

Otherwise i think they would have lived forever.

As so we all too would live forever.

By taking from the tree of knowledge, they made the decision not to live forever but to know how to enjoy their small lives.

You all should read " Bloodlines - SIGMA " from James Rollins

We all always go for knowledge, it is our ultimate power, but living forever ( or at least more then 120 years like it says in the bible ) i think to be a bigger quest, to reach that will probably be impossible, as that choice was already made by someone in the beginning of mankind.

[Serenitydawn]

After a book i've read i say this, there was once Adam and Eve. They were upon a decision that would make mankind as it is, or as we have never seen it ( or maybe some do ) Either take a fruit from the tree of life or take a fruit from the tree of knowledge..
They took from the tree of knowledge...

Otherwise i think they would have lived forever.

As so we all too would live forever.

By taking from the tree of knowledge, they made the decision not to live forever but to know how to enjoy their small lives.

You all should read " Bloodlines - SIGMA " from James Rollins

We all always go for knowledge, it is our ultimate power, but living forever ( or at least more then 120 years like it says in the bible ) i think to be a bigger quest, to reach that will probably be impossible, as that choice was already made by someone in the beginning of mankind.

Only if you believe in impossible. I am finding that there is no such thing, anything and everything is possible. You just have to find the way.

[sunas]

Been reading bits and pieces about that matter lately, don't know why but it happened as a coincidence.
I'm now reading " The Fall " by Del Toro..the last of the trilogy i think..
It also touches that matter, as same as the book i refered above from James Rollins..all two fictional books, and with that i intend to say that they are not pieces of study, grimoires or whatesoever..
I do not believe in the impossible i believe in hard to reach..
There are different levels of hardness..

[Serenitydawn]

I wish I had more time to read, I used to spend most of my time reading. However, I agree different levels of difficulty.

[Moongoat]

I must say, I love Ford's aesthetic and writing style despite the bad editing that all his books seem to have. I've also used a modified version of one of his rituals to consecrate my athame.

That being said, I'm generally not impressed by what he puts out. His banishing rituals seem to be the standard "turn widdershins and replace the Hebrew God-names in the LBRP with Demon names" schtick which seems to be pretty standard with some of your spiritual LHP-types. If you read from a lot of other sources, you can see that he pulls a lot of material from about everywhere and "Luciferianizes" it. He also has a bad habit of just kind of making stuff up. I've read the Bible of the Adversary and Book of the Witch Moon, and I thumbed through a few others, but I've gotten rid of all of the printed versions of books I used to own by him.

I think there are still a couple jewels to be found in his books though. His vampirism material contains a vampire servitor ritual I remember reading about when choronzon.com was still up, and some material which he seems to have ripped off from the Temple of the Vampire's Vampire Bible. The thing is, he actually improves on it in my opinion. The TOV ritual in question originally summoned some kind of "astral vampire elders" to feed from the magician and replace some of the magician's essence with their own so that the magician may ascend to a state closer to them. These elders are considered to be the true masters of the Temple of the Vampire, kind of the their version of the Secret Chiefs, I suppose. Anyway, they make a big, scary, over-dramatic deal about it in the Vampire Bible and on the TOV forum. Ford basically takes the ritual and the beings with which the magician communes, and universalizes them. Ford also created an evocation ritual whereby the magician summons the shades of the dead to serve him in exchange for his own vital energy, which they feed upon while he sleeps. I think the Chaotes may have done this before Ford did too, but it fits in nicely with the whole vampirism theme.

[Serenitydawn]

He also has a bad habit of just kind of making stuff up.

Isn't that the point of magcik? Besides he either steals stuff and just reworks it (which seems to be what many do) or he makes it up. I usually just make shit up myself. I also don't do rituals, so I don't read those bits. I have no need for them. The Vampire stuff sounds interesting, I downloaded it, but haven't had a chance to read it. I like what I've read so far though.

[Azkhet]

Magic requires manipulating symbolic logic symbols with empowered intent. There is both structure and analinear reasoning to it. Coupled with knowledge of energy mechanics and magical cosmology, the magician alters reality through the lens of self, then verifies results. The process is akin to the scientific method. Is there an element of making it up and winging it? Yes, as dictated by the manipulation of symbolic logic symbols in response to changes in your self and environment. This is much different than the form of "making it up" employed by Michael Ford. Frankly, I'd argue he's the ultimate Satanic expression since he's making a mint off the people who are duped into his work - a fool and his money are soon parted, there's one born every minute, the Satanist as a creature of worldly comforts, etc - but take his books are seriously as Silver Ravenwolf's when you read them.

[sunas]

That is why ( and if i please may share just my opinion ) i think that there oughta be no Satanists..its simple as that, who invented it might as well joined the ranks of the Vatican, because they both belong together.

[sunas]

Because i think that whoever invented it, just did the same as that man, grabbed bits and parts from here and from there, from acquaintances made in places where certainty was something regular, where truth laid on. From there it picked names, it picked rituals and it all started..that is my guess but then, who really knows how it started anyway..

[Moongoat]

He also has a bad habit of just kind of making stuff up.

Isn't that the point of magcik? Besides he either steals stuff and just reworks it (which seems to be what many do) or he makes it up. I usually just make shit up myself. I also don't do rituals, so I don't read those bits. I have no need for them. The Vampire stuff sounds interesting, I downloaded it, but haven't had a chance to read it. I like what I've read so far though.

The point of Magick? We could go back and forth forever about that. I guess my issue with Ford's making stuff up is that there doesn't seem to be much of a point to it, nor does he mention when he does make stuff up or gets it from another source. He'll take a caduceus, slap an inverted pentagram on it, give it an ominous-sounding name, and explain it's meaning like it's some ancient symbol, the study of which is supposed to help contextualize the universe for the magician, when he just made it up, and it's generally only useful for angry high school kids to doodle on notebooks. Seriously, he has pages of these things.

Anyway, I hope you enjoy his books. He does have a pretty neat writing style and there are some gems in there. I'd personally recommend his vampirism material, and as vampire groups go, his Order of the Black Dragon doesn't seem to as full of shit as the Vampire Temple or as RPGish as Ordo Strigoi Vii. Also, his industrial project Psychonaut75, is awesome.

[TheSeeker]

I guess my issue with Ford's making stuff up is that there doesn't seem to be much of a point to it, nor does he mention when he does make stuff up or gets it from another source.

Where I come from that's akin to plagiarism.
I have several books of Frod's kicking about, but I've only dipped in here and there. There's always been something about him that I disliked on an intuitive level.
Following this Thread though did make me curious about the man, so I looked up his channel on Youtube. Now I have a better understanding of why I don't like the guy.
Watching him speak I was struck by his presentation, his presence and his ego; and, how he was working them all in concert as a kind of Occult Package.
I don't buy it. He comes across to me as an angry, insecure being hiding inside a shell, and railing against the cultural boundaries imposed on his upbringing.
Maybe it's the black nylon Heavy Metal flag in the background, I dunno.

Anyway, I'm not a LHP guy at all, and I don't know who this Fox-dude is but I found his comments interesting...

Spoiler:

[toadbones]

He's definitely very big on practically plagiarizing Andrew Chumbley's written works and even the art in his earlier books reeks of Azoetia illustrations. I personally find his system to be lacking in both originality and profundity. He tends to interpret pantheons according to his own 'adversarial' paradigm which would be fine if he didn't completely misunderstand the role those particular deities have in those specific cultures. I think as a philosophy he gives an inspiring starting point for many, but beyond that he leaves everyone empty handed. Just my two cents.

[TheSeeker]

He's definitely very big on practically plagiarizing Andrew Chumbley's written works and even the art in his earlier books reeks of Azoetia illustrations.

I personally find his system to be lacking in both originality and profundity.

He tends to interpret pantheons according to his own 'adversarial' paradigm which would be fine if he didn't completely misunderstand the role those particular deities have in those specific cultures.

I think as a philosophy he gives an inspiring starting point for many...

Okay, well that's two of us for the plagiarism vote. Although I must confess the Chumbley connection never occurred to me. I'll have to go have another look at Azoëtia...
I guess that's the point I was trying to make when I wrote 'Occult Package', there's something almost evangelical about the Dude. To me that always comes across as insincere, like a cheap black suit.
Actually, I couldn't agree more. Reading some of his material, or even watching him speak about ancient Near Eastern religio/spiritual practice would make any academic groan in disbelief. Mesopotamia was simply never that dark and evil, nor was their practice of magic preoccupied with promoting personal power and reinforcing the ego the way Ford is.
Perhaps inspiring, but of what use is that if one is pointed in the wrong direction?
[geek2]