Ethics

[AngelAriel]

I have been thinking of ways in which I can improve my current financial and living situation, and I have deduced that everything boils down to a certain bit of information that my family is waiting on. I am thinking about doing a spell so that this bit of news and information becomes apparent. Would doing something like this be in violation of any sort of magickal ethic?

[Rin]

Impossible to say without context. What does the information refer to? Who does it effect when it comes to light?

[Azkhet]

The idea of a Rule of Three or similar is absurdist nonsense based on a poor understanding of the concept of karma combined with post-Christian guilt - instead of God in his Heaven doling out merits or punishment based on a nebulous system of rules, we now have the Divine Law of Karma/Divine Spirit doling out merits or punishment based on a nebulous system of rules. Piss off God, wind up in Hell. Piss off Divine Spirit, reincarnate as a cockroach, which is the closest thing you have to Hell in a system that doesn't really have a Hell. This is typically how karma/magical ethics are explained. This is ridiculous. Karma is more the tending trend of your actions, not a reaction to your actions. Changing the trend of your actions is the result of learning and understanding, but if you were living in a constant state of reaction you'd always be in the karmic debt-hole because no one is flawless in thought, deed and word, certainly not an imperfect soul seeking wisdom. If this were the case, you'd be totally screwed from the get-go (we all would be.) Don't believe me? Read the Venerable Mahasi Syadaw instead.

With that said, whether something is ethical is up to you. I tend to favor what's absolutely practical and fixes the problem, and to hell if it upsets people - they can get over it while celebrating the fact the problem is fixed. I would consider this a utilitarian ethic (happiness is a solved problem, the discontent by the solution a temporary issue), but some people would consider it pure bitch ethic because I don't care about their fweeelings. Would you? Would it apply to your problem? If you're asking a message board, my guess is you already have reservations. Rest assured, though, that neither God nor the Devil will care about your choice - and neither will "karma."

[Frater_NT]

Only if you think so. No one is to judge ethics of magic but you.

[AngelAriel]

Impossible to say without context. What does the information refer to? Who does it effect when it comes to light?

It would affect my family, and possibly the postal system. I only want information to hurry up and come instead of waiting until October (or later) according to what my last reading about the matter was. Basically, before peeps went all Rebecca Brown in the house and everyone was perfectly find with my doing readings with Lenormand and Playing Cards, and before I was thrown under the bus by my ungrateful mother, I had done a reading about when my father would receive notification of the outcome of a case, and I deduced with Lenormand that it would be sometime in October that we would hear anything (specifically, when the sun was in a venusian sign, libra or Taurus, of which I deduced it was Libra because of the airy Clouds card nearby) Well since then, my folks have been like "Your lying, it's coming tomorrow," or "I hope your wrong," or "We got called and were told that we would receive a response within the next few weeks," etc, back in April. Three months later and one god forsaken book later, we have received NO official final letter telling us the outcome of the case. And so, I am hoping to do something so that it will come sooner. I made a post in Chaos Magick about this.

Essentially, if this money comes through, that means I can save my money from work FOR MYSELF and work on moving out because my parents won't be in such a terrible financial position. In essence, I will become free(er).

The idea of a Rule of Three or similar is absurdist nonsense based on a poor understanding of the concept of karma combined with post-Christian guilt - instead of God in his Heaven doling out merits or punishment based on a nebulous system of rules, we now have the Divine Law of Karma/Divine Spirit doling out merits or punishment based on a nebulous system of rules. Piss off God, wind up in Hell. Piss off Divine Spirit, reincarnate as a cockroach, which is the closest thing you have to Hell in a system that doesn't really have a Hell. This is typically how karma/magical ethics are explained. This is ridiculous. Karma is more the tending trend of your actions, not a reaction to your actions. Changing the trend of your actions is the result of learning and understanding, but if you were living in a constant state of reaction you'd always be in the karmic debt-hole because no one is flawless in thought, deed and word, certainly not an imperfect soul seeking wisdom. If this were the case, you'd be totally screwed from the get-go (we all would be.) Don't believe me? Read the Venerable Mahasi Syadaw instead.

With that said, whether something is ethical is up to you. I tend to favor what's absolutely practical and fixes the problem, and to hell if it upsets people - they can get over it while celebrating the fact the problem is fixed. I would consider this a utilitarian ethic (happiness is a solved problem, the discontent by the solution a temporary issue), but some people would consider it pure bitch ethic because I don't care about their fweeelings. Would you? Would it apply to your problem? If you're asking a message board, my guess is you already have reservations. Rest assured, though, that neither God nor the Devil will care about your choice - and neither will "karma."

I actually know what true Karma is (I was planning on converting to Tibetan Buddhism at some point). I was more so asking because I had seen an incidence in the Chaos Magick forum in which an individual blatantly violated someone's will, and I believe you specifically had verbally (written) admonished her a bit. That got me thinking about stuff, because if overriding someone's will is such a big thing, then such a spell would override, in theory, the will of possibly the judge, the secretary, the postal man, etc, by making them work faster than they are now. That is why I ask.

Utilitiarianism, the greater good for the most people, correct? I took philosophy back in college.

Thank you for the link!

Only if you think so. No one is to judge ethics of magic but you.

I'm starting to see that, lol. I just wanted to make sure....

[Azkhet]

I actually know what true Karma is (I was planning on converting to Tibetan Buddhism at some point). I was more so asking because I had seen an incidence in the Chaos Magick forum in which an individual blatantly violated someone's will, and I believe you specifically had verbally (written) admonished her a bit. That got me thinking about stuff, because if overriding someone's will is such a big thing, then such a spell would override, in theory, the will of possibly the judge, the secretary, the postal man, etc, by making them work faster than they are now. That is why I ask.

I personally think violating someone's will is a shitty thing to do, but that's because I think it's a shitty thing to do, not because There's Some Grand Rule Against It. I don't think you should pull on the ears of puppies, either. [yay] What really drives me insane is when someone tries some smarmy "well, I'm not controlling their will" argument, usually in context of some dipshit 16 year old that wants to cast a love spell to get her boyfriend back, but it's totally okay because it's what she wants and it's luuuuuuv, never mind what HE wants and the reciprocal (him using magic to coerce her) would be called rape. When you call them out on this, they try to back it up somehow that it's okay. No, it's not. Call it what it is - coercion of the will and (in my opinion) a form of psychic rape. If you want to perform such an act, be fucking honest about it and don't try to whitewash it.

So, talking about manipulating the post man. Are you manipulating the man or manipulating his circumstance? How is the magic functioning? Are you causing him harm? How are you defining harm? Do you care if you harm him? Well, that's up to you. If I use magic to get a judge to let me slip on a traffic ticket, who am I harming? Is it the same thing if I try to beat a murder rap? We can argue this one all day, lol. Me, I judge cost versus benefit and go, but that's also me. As you know (having also taken ethics) there are a lot of people who wouldn't roll with that. I usually draw the line at screwing with people's hearts and jobs, fwiw.

[AngelAriel]

I actually know what true Karma is (I was planning on converting to Tibetan Buddhism at some point). I was more so asking because I had seen an incidence in the Chaos Magick forum in which an individual blatantly violated someone's will, and I believe you specifically had verbally (written) admonished her a bit. That got me thinking about stuff, because if overriding someone's will is such a big thing, then such a spell would override, in theory, the will of possibly the judge, the secretary, the postal man, etc, by making them work faster than they are now. That is why I ask.

I personally think violating someone's will is a shitty thing to do, but that's because I think it's a shitty thing to do, not because There's Some Grand Rule Against It. I don't think you should pull on the ears of puppies, either. [yay] What really drives me insane is when someone tries some smarmy "well, I'm not controlling their will" argument, usually in context of some dipshit 16 year old that wants to cast a love spell to get her boyfriend back, but it's totally okay because it's what she wants and it's luuuuuuv, never mind what HE wants and the reciprocal (him using magic to coerce her) would be called rape. When you call them out on this, they try to back it up somehow that it's okay. No, it's not. Call it what it is - coercion of the will and (in my opinion) a form of psychic rape. If you want to perform such an act, be fucking honest about it and don't try to whitewash it.

So, talking about manipulating the post man. Are you manipulating the man or manipulating his circumstance? How is the magic functioning? Are you causing him harm? How are you defining harm? Do you care if you harm him? Well, that's up to you. If I use magic to get a judge to let me slip on a traffic ticket, who am I harming? Is it the same thing if I try to beat a murder rap? We can argue this one all day, lol. Me, I judge cost versus benefit and go, but that's also me. As you know (having also taken ethics) there are a lot of people who wouldn't roll with that. I usually draw the line at screwing with people's hearts and jobs, fwiw.

When you put it that way, I dont think it's causing any harm. Quite frankly, at this point, I could care very little about what the judgement says, I more so want the notification to get here ASAP... So in your traffic ticket analogy, I am more so speeding up the hearing or whatever notification methods...that is all. I've done a couple of divination stuffs apart from cards (geomancy is really interesting, I'd try pyromancy too, but I've been banned from using fire, as of last week.), and It seems to imply that things may be stretched out for quite a bit.

[Ramscha]

There is no "magickal ethik". The ethik is is defined by yourself and/or your believe system of choice.