Desperate plea

[Durzl77]

I don't know how to explain this all, but briefly putting it I would like someone experienced in magick, (preferably, but not necessarily in goetic demon summoning) to help me with an extremely personal problem. I'm in love with a married woman, a woman whom I used to date, and have been in love with ever since. I was separated from her by my foster parents at the time, and ever since then (this was almost 5 years ago) I've been trying to get back to her. Around a month ago I found her again, but discovered that she was married and had a daughter, I know for sure that her husband is a terrible person, or at least to her, he has hit her before and is constantly tearing down her confidence. The problem is that she loves him. Enough to look past how he treats her. I know it's selfish on my part to want to separate them, but I don't know where else to turn to. I'm not experienced enough yet to contact any sort of otherworldly help that I know of, but I'm pretty sure that lerajie (the goetic demon) could help me with this, I'm willing to sacrifice almost anything to split them up and be with her. If anyone can help me by summoning lerajie or, if you know of any other way to fix this problem, then please respond..

words in this color are the essential details pertaining to the request for those who don't wish to read it all

[Frater_NT]

I dont think you'll have anyone here help you with this problem. Most people would view this as negative magic and would stay far from this one. I myself have no problem with black magic and using it when it's called for, but you're still on your own here. The problem is that magic works when you have an emotional desire for whatever goal to happen. I have no emotional attachment to your ex or this situation so frankly since I don't care whether you get her or not, I doubt it would work. Not trying to be mean here man, just honest with you.

[Durzl77]

Thank you for being honest, and I understand what you mean, but I'm also looking for information on how I could achieve this myself, I just know that right now with what I currently know, I won't be able to do anything about it.

[Frater_NT]

I guess I would now have to ask, how much experience do you actually have and what kind of stuff have you done? Has goetia been your main focus or have you done other things such as witchcraft?

[Durzl77]

I have literally done nothing but research, I've attempted a goetic summoning of furcas, but that either failed or I wasn't able to recognize his presence. Goetia has been my primary focus, but only because it seemed the most profitable venue at the time.

[Frater_NT]

Goetia isn't the easiest thing to do, especially if you havent really done any actual work with it yet. I would recommend you take up Crowley's "Illustrated Goetia" (way easier to understand than the Mathers translation) or look into E.A. Koetting's "Evoking Eternity". I can't believe I'm going to even recommend this, but if you are looking for darker stuff, Michael W Ford has a book called "Luciferian Goetia". I don't usually recommend Ford due to his books having terrible editing and how he completely rips off other authors, but it's still an option.

[Durzl77]

I've already read some of the illustrated goetia, and I've read other more current things on the subject, I guess my "problem" with the way most people approach goetia is that they feel the need to bind the spirits or demons, from what I've read, I don't think that's too necessary, I'd rather build up more of a relationship with the entity rather than forcing my will upon him/her. It seems disrespectful, they have been here longer and will be here longer, I feel like I have no business attempting to bend their will.. I might not be making too much sense, but if there was some way around that part of it I'd gladly take that path.. Thank you for the recommendations, I'm sure they'll prove to be useful!

[Azkhet]

Disrespect. Goetia. How funny. [yay]

Read this thread in it's entirety.

[RoseRed]

It's not just her. There is also a child involved. That complicates things and adds lots more attachments to the situation.

I don't work with Geotia but befriending a demon to work with you is not likely to happen.

This is a run of the mill desperate plea for a love spell/break-up spell. You're not the first and you certainly won't be the last that thinks of turning to magick to get what you want. I'm not trying to belittle your request - I'm just saying that it's one of the more common requests.

I'm assuming the child is very young since it's only been 5 years. The younger the child the stronger the bond between them all. It just usually works that way.

Your best bet for a magickal working would be witchcraft if you can find a witch that wants to get involved in a mess like that. I know I don't.

[Durzl77]

Thanks for your reply, and yes the child is young, but I'd gladly care for her as my own, and I'm not surprised to find that this is a common request.. What specific part of witchcraft (if you know of any) would deal with this sort of thing, and where could I find out more about it?

[RoseRed]

Without having practical experience behind you trying to do a break-up/love spell on you own will end up in disaster.

If you're really serious and no amount of good advice will stop you - you're best bet would be to find a witch that accepts payment for work. They're not hard to find and most of them have blogs and websites.

Personally, I think this is a horrifically bad idea. Love spells rarely - if ever - work the way you want them to. I understand wanting to raise the child as your own but I'm sure that the child and the father have inherent problems with this idea.

Have you tried - oh, I don't know - talking to her?

It's amazing how much can be accomplished in the mundane. Have you told her that you want her to get a divorce, come be with you and you guys can create a family unit of your own? What did she say? You need to know where she stands with this before you proceed. Do you really want to overpower her own wants and desires just so that you can have your own? That never works out well.

[Azkhet]

I'm reading this as that you're well-meaning and wanting to help her, even wanting to accept responsibility for your actions up front. So, since it seems like your heart is in the right place, here's my honest advice:

The Goetia typically is a bad choice for love spells. The reason why is that the Goetia *in particular* is fueled by subconscious impulses and emotions; Crowley goes so far as to call the Goetic demons emanations of the psyche and not true "demons" like you're using the term. That's why I lol'd at "treating them with respect"; the vast majority of them aren't even "true demons" like you'd think of Lilith (as an example), and you don't evoke or interact with them in the same way at all. Anyhow, if you're not using to grooming and focusing your intent, working with an unruly and powerful element of your subconscious that has no concept of morality or ethics whatsoever in order to force an issue pertaining to an already quixotic and volatile emotion is a trainwreck waiting to happen, and a big one at that.

I don't like love spells because forcing someone to make that kind of decision is really as bad as forcing them to do anything else, and if you wouldn't force her into bed with you (I would hope) then you've got no business coercing her with magic. If she hasn't left this guy on her own, clearly there is a reason. This is going to sound bad so please forgive me in advance, but you're a guy. She's a chick. Women do not operate on the same logical rules that men do (men often insist that we're irrational, we tell them that they "don't get it" ... ever have that conversation? I know you have because we've all had it.) Let's assume you both still love each other. You see an abusive husband that tears her down. Even if she sees the same thing, obviously she seems some measure of security in her situation, enough where she's willing to trade her emotional and physical health to maintain it - she hasn't been jarred loose from the situation. The kid being there is going to make her even harder to jar loose because she'll sacrifice everything she has to make sure the kid is secure... and if that means a few split lips but the kid is guaranteed to have shoes for school, for some women that's a worthy trade. The economy is bad right now. That's worth a black eye when the alternative could be a lot worse. It doesn't help that oftentimes abusers will express feelings of guilt over what they've done and shower their victim with attention as a result - dinner, chocolates, flowers, "I'm sorry" and all that. If she fell in love, had a kid, feels trapped by the practical problems (divorce means lawyers and issues with health insurance and money and child care and all sorts of stress), he's actively screwing with her emotions, she's already depressed and injured, and now you've popped back on scene? My God, the black eye is just easier at the end of the day.

In your well-meaning man way, you see the female you like in a hurtful situation that's apparently love-based (her husband) so you want to do a quick-fix to save her. All men do this, I think - you see your crying and upset female and you're instinctually wired to try to fix it. However, the quick fix doesn't really help her. All it does it make her even MORE emotionally torn between security and you and her kid and all sorts of things. All a love spell would do is torture her. That isn't what you're trying to do, I think, but it's most likely what would happen.

If you really want to help her, try to take an objective look at her situation. It could be a confidence and self-esteem issue, for example, that is driving her choices. Forcing her into love doesn't help you, but building up her confidence that it's not okay for her to be hit, that it's not okay for her to be blamed for nothing, etc etc is a good start. Bind him so he stops hurting her and cast serious protection spells - and teach her to cast one or two for herself and her kid, if you can. Since you're wanting to play with the Goetia and you have a strong impulse to protect her, why not capitalize on it and use a Goetic critter to protect her instead? I don't see a problem with your intentions, like I said, just the implementation. Manage this correctly (after all, it was you that helped her, and if she feels rescued by you, you've gone a long way towards keeping her) and keep yourself from getting friendzoned, and you're in good shape. Love spells won't help here at all.

[Durzl77]

Thank you immensely Azkhet, I fell like you understand more of what I'm thinking in this case, and for the most part I agree with you. It just kills me to see her hurt and manipulated, both physically and mentally, I'd do anything to protect her, and I'd managed to convince myself that this was the best way to do that, but I understand it a bit more now. I want her to be safe, happy, and healthy above all things, and with her husband doing those things to her that just can't happen.. I'm really torn about it (obviously) but as long as she is safe from him then that's more important to me than my selfish desires.. I'm going to start looking for protection and binding spells now, I want to do this as soon as possible, but I wanted to note that one of the reasons she is still with him is that she's been abused almost her whole life, she was raped at a young age and had an abusive father, I don't fully have my psychology degree yet, but I'd bet anything that being abused just feels natural to her now, and that's something I don't want her to continue to live with..

[Durzl77]

Thank you for your reply also RoseRed, and yes I have spoken to her almost every waking moment since I found her again, and we have discussed the topic immensely, she sees herself as having little value, so she doesn't understand how I can see her as someone worth even worrying over..

[RoseRed]

Azkhet - that was an awesome post. And unfortunately, it's the truth of the situation for a lot of women. I understood what was happening here and what you wanted to do. The way you were trying to approach it just won't work well.

It's heartbreaking to hear of any woman in this type of situation - especially when their self esteem has been shattered to this point.

Do you want her safe or do you want to have her for your own? You can bind the husband and hopefully, he'll stop hitting her. That in itself may make it easier for her to stay in this situation. That's something that you need to realize upfront. If you work magically to protect her - it may be more difficult to leave if she feels even marginally safer.

Are you in a position where you can financially take on a family? Can you keep a roof over their heads and provide for them? The security of having a roof over your head can outweigh personal safety especially when you have a small child to think of.

So, she can't understand what it is that you see in her because she can't see it for herself. She doesn't have the confidence to find herself worthy of love. I know you don't want to hear this but time can prove that you're serious. If you give up because it takes too long it'll prove to her that she was right not to leave. But at the same time - how long are you willing to wait?

Another thing to consider and I don't know if this has happened or if she's told you about it if it has. Has he ever threatened her with what he'll do if she tries to leave? The sheer terror of that is much worse than the fear of staying.

What happens when her husband finds out that she's talking to you and that you're trying to convince her to leave? Please tell me that you've at least considered that. People can tell when something changes with their partner. You need to be very careful here. The last thing anyone wants is for her to be killed in a jealous rage. And that's a very real possibility from what you're saying.

Unless he harms the child or gives up parental rights - he will still be a part of her life. From the situations I've witnessed like this the child will most likely be used as pawn so long as he still has joint custody or visitation. It's sickening that anyone would do that to a child but it happens every day.

I understand this situation is killing you emotionally. It's a very real possibility that this can kill her physically. Don't ever forget that your actions have consequences. Trying to force her to leave before she is ready is still putting your will above hers. That's what she's married to.

You have a lot of things to really, seriously and deeply consider here.

[Durzl77]

I want her safe first and foremost, even if that makes it harder for her to leave him, part of me selfishly wants to keep her for my own no matter what, but I really do want what's best for her.. I can financially provide for her, and would do so gladly. The thought of him using their daughter as a pawn against her makes me almost livid, but I can only hope that it doesn't come to that.. He hasn't made threats about what would happen if she tried to leave, and she's smart enough to see past any threats he brings, I've assured her she'd be safe if she left him, and explained to her that I would do everything I could to keep her safe. I live in a rather small town and personally know several law people in law enforcement. I have thought about what would happen if he found out we were talking, and I've been sure that we leave no record of it so that he doesn't have that as an excuse to hurt her further. I don't want to force my will over her own, but she doesn't feel worth saving from abuse..

[RoseRed]

I want her safe first and foremost, even if that makes it harder for her to leave him, part of me selfishly wants to keep her for my own no matter what, but I really do want what's best for her..

Love can be very selfish but I also believe that your heart is in the right place.

I can financially provide for her, and would do so gladly.

If and when she makes her decision to leave - that will certainly make it easier.

The thought of him using their daughter as a pawn against her makes me almost livid, but I can only hope that it doesn't come to that..

I understand. I truly do BUT you need to calm down. Take some time, meditate, breathe, whatever it takes. You cannot think clearly when you're blood is boiling.

He hasn't made threats about what would happen if she tried to leave, and she's smart enough to see past any threats he brings

No, she's not. Not right now. She's still living under the threat of being hit for whatever reason. She is broken. She is shattered. She is seeing life through a lens that you cannot possibly comprehend.

Once he notices a change in her - I wouldn't be surprised if the threats start.

I've assured her she'd be safe if she left him, and explained to her that I would do everything I could to keep her safe. I live in a rather small town and personally know several law people in law enforcement. I have thought about what would happen if he found out we were talking, and I've been sure that we leave no record of it so that he doesn't have that as an excuse to hurt her further.

You can't give her that assurance. You can't keep her under armed guard 24 hrs a day. It doesn't matter how many cops you know - cops show up after the fact. Small towns simply don't have the man power to protect her whenever you leave the house. Face the fact that a restraining order is nothing more than a piece of paper. It doesn't have some magickal property to keep him away.

I don't want to force my will over her own, but she doesn't feel worth saving from abuse..

Enough with the buts. This has to be her choice.

You are passionate, young and naive. You need to wake up and stop focusing on 'hope'. The sad fact is that these relationships turn uglier when they end. A lot of times the best way to really get out of it is to move far, far away.

Have you told her 'I wish you could see you through my eyes?' and explained to her how you see her. If she can begin to see herself through a different lens then you've got a good starting point.

[Durzl77]

I understand what youre saying, I'm usually more of an emotionally detached person, this is just something very close to my heart.. I have used the words "I wish you could see you through my eyes." before, and explained to her how much she means to me. I think you are right once again about a lot of things, and I think time will be my best friend and worst enemy when it comes to this. All I can do is be there for her if/when she decides she's had enough. I just wish it was as easy as a simple spell to make all her troubles go away..

[Asurendra]

I hope that Durzl will take the excellent advice offered on this thread.

[Clockwork Ghost]

...I guess my "problem" with the way most people approach goetia is that they feel the need to bind the spirits or demons, from what I've read, I don't think that's too necessary, I'd rather build up more of a relationship with the entity rather than forcing my will upon him/her.

Have you considered Demonolatry? If youre more interested in developing a relationship with a demon, Demonolatry sounds much more up your street than Goetia does. The Dukante heirachy is similar to the Ars Goetia, and includes many of the same entities, but the focus is on developing a relationship with your patron demon much in the same way Catholics venerate the saints.

[Durzl77]

That sounds interesting I'll look into it now, thanks!

[Lucius]

Before I write, I'll confess that I haven't read the entirety of this thread, but it seems you're a really nice guy and you're heart is in the right place. I can understand why you're angry- if someone hit my girlfriend god help them... (I know she's not your girlfriend but still). The thing is, if you are going to use magic, make sure that it is a calm and calculated decision. Because if it is not you may think you are in control, but you won't be (to a degree).

I would not use demons to solve this though. If I were in your situation I would enlist the assistance of an angel. I'll explain why.
Demons have their uses, and I'm sure they can effectively split up the relationship but by using an angel of love for example, the relationship will be ended but in a much calmer way. Tensions won't be running high- sure she'll be upset that the relationship is over but she is not in a good mental place so that is to be expected. The safety of the child and then the women is the priority.

This guy, is scum. After the relationship is split (if you're really going to go through with this) and the girl and women are safe (well, you know, as safe as they can be) I'll tell you what I would do in that situation. I would construct a well made binding, so that he will not be able to get in any kind of relationship until he truly changes (I have done this before). But, I would not rein hell fire onto him, that is not my place to make that judgement and punishment and also you do not know what the possible repercussions are.

The reason I say this is, as you said, you are new to magic. When one is new to magic it is easy to get carried away and wield it as a weapon. You see though, defending yourself and others with magic is one thing but a solution must be constructive, not destructive. So by doing the binding it is safeguarding other people against future attacks but it is giving him the chance to atone for his actions (he is scum, but I do not judge on those levels, I leave that to the divine). This is constructive. By destroying him, that will safeguard against future attacks but he is now dead or destroyed, that is not as constructive as it could be.

If the divine wishes to punish him (which I hope it does) then that is up to the divine, not the magician. But I do see your position and I am in no way criticizing you, I admire how you have stepped up to help this woman, I think it is really great, you my friend- have honour!

I hope this helps

[Durzl77]

All that sounds way better then what I had planned, I'm still waiting to see how all this turns out, but if my previous binding of him doesn't work, then that's the route I'll take. Do you know of any books or something about the whole angel thing? Even if I don't use it this time I'd love to learn about it.

[Lucius]

The most classic books to read are the various works of Dr. John Dee- the originator of Angelic magic.

Best of luck man, you deserve it [thumbup]