My Goetia Stumbling Block

[Asurendra]

I have a long-standing interest in the Greater and Lesser Keys of Solomon. But, I have a major stumbling block: these works are predicated upon operating with Judeo-Christian names of god and his celestial hierarchy. I do not believe in Jehovah (I hope no such entity exists) and do not know how one who does not can use names such as Adonai, Elohim and sigils of archangels to control Goetic entities if they are empty.
Or, does this go a step further and outside of a Yahwist belief system do these beings exist at all?

[Azkhet]

Goetic spirits are universal to the human subconscious, as they are emanations thereof. If you can't get around the Judeo-Christian setup, read Crowley's Illustrated Goetia. He puts it more in terms of modern psychology.

[Frater_NT]

If you have a strong interest in ceremonial magic of any form, you'll have to get over whatever hang ups you have about the systems. You have to keep in mind that ceremonial magic is based around the qabalah so you'll be up to your ass in christian and jewish symbolism, whether you look into Golden Dawn styled magic or Thelema. Try to understand, the qabalah and ceremonial magic are full of symbols that everyone in the western world will recognize. When you see YHVH in ceremonial magic, they are not literally talking about the god named YHVH, but rather this is a symbolic "name", or rather map, to an idea. Angels are not winged beings flying around playing terrible music on harps, but personifications of universal forces. Once you understand this, you can work any system without any trouble. However, if you are really hell-bent on not using traditional style, go check out Farrar's "What Witches Do". I believe it's in this book there they show an example of spirit evocation in an Alexandrian (BTW) method. I don't remember if they used christian and jewish symbols or not, but Alex Sanders, the founder of the Alexandrian tradition, was big into ceremonial magic so there may or may not be those symbols you don't like.

[Ramscha]

that ceremonial magic is based around the qabalah so you'll be up to your ass in christian and jewish symbolism,

I have to negotiate that. The western ceremonial magic in most of it part, yes, but not every ceremonial magick.
I want to remind you that there are many other systems in this world, far away from every sort of jewish symbolism. My favourite example would be shinto and its rituals. I like the system of kami usage as well as the work of rituals with them. I can only recommend to try it as a sort of "out of the box" experience.

It is not easy to find something specific in that direction
A book I could recommend isThe Complete Book of Spells, Ceremonies and Magic, pace 306 and following


Hope that I could help

[Frater_NT]

I have to negotiate that. The western ceremonial magic in most of it part, yes, but not every ceremonial magick.
I want to remind you that there are many other systems in this world, far away from every sort of jewish symbolism. My favourite example would be shinto and its rituals. I like the system of kami usage as well as the work of rituals with them. I can only recommend to try it as a sort of "out of the box" experience.

I am not in the mood for this. Yes, western ceremonial magic. That's what we are talking about. Like I said, a study of ceremonial magic will have you up to your ass in qabalah. Now give it a rest.

[Vashta]

I am not in the mood for this. Yes, western ceremonial magic. That's what we are talking about. Like I said, a study of ceremonial magic will have you up to your ass in qabalah. Now give it a rest.

Ramscha's post may have been a bit OT, but that's no excuse to take your mood out on him. Try to be nice please

[Nahemah]

What Vashta said. [thumbup]

Ramscha is correct in what he said,especially given that at no point in this topic did Fr,Nt specifically mention Western Ceremonialism when describing what Ceremonialism is.

It's not ALL Quaballah and some practioners do not base their work around the Western Mystery Tradition.Fair enough.

However,Ramscha's post could also be seen as a bit off topic or misdirected,given that the OP posted about Solomonic magick and that is definately Western.
[It's actually Levantine/Middle Eastern Semitic originally,if we're being contentious and even then,it was highly tweaked by the addition of Christian mores and the necessity of presenting a system that was acceptable to the Religious powers that be,at the time:The Catholic Church of Rome.]

Yet:

If you have a strong interest in ceremonial magic of any form, you'll have to get over whatever hang ups you have about the systems.

Fr.Nt did say any form.

But I do agree with the sentence above,as quoted.

Even when it's not a Western system,it will be necessary to wrap your head around beliefs and ideas that may be difficult to understand or accept,at some point.

I feel I'm splitting hairs here,but there was a valid point in Ramscha's post and there was a lack of clarity around that,though It was a little off topic,strictly speaking.

The snark response still remains unnecessary,though.

[Nahemah]

Or, does this go a step further and outside of a Yahwist belief system do these beings exist at all?

You have to look at the sources of the Goetic names and the mythology that underpins them in their original forms, to find out. [thumbup]