What are the goals of chaos magick?

[Frumens]

Greetings chaotes and friends,

I don't know much about chaos magick. Right now, I understand it to be magick minus all the historical and cultural baggage. I think there's a preference toward explaining magick as a psychological phenomenon. And of course, there's the practice of adopting and discarding beliefs as the magician sees fit. You can have any beliefs you feel like, or even not believe in magick if that works for you. That's about all I know.

So now for the question. First, what's the point of doing chaos magick? Since you change beliefs on a weekly basis, is there any motive for practicing chaos magick besides thaumaturgy? Is it simply a strategy for casting spells more efficiently? Second, what's the difference between calling yourself a chaote as opposed to a syncretic or eclectic magician?

I'm not interested in reading an entire book about chaos magick. I just want these questions answered, hopefully by chaotes and non chaotes. Thanks!

[Tiaden]

I can only speak for myself, but, I don't agree with your statements and ideas.

My understanding and method is to learn from every possible place, to dig down to the very heart of the thing and use what works for me. My beliefs do not change every week, far from it, the core has been established and unwaivering for many years. The purpose of the whole thing is to, as I said in the start, learn from every possible source, find the heart of the phenomenon and use what works for us. It's about finding our own personal truth and path.

I use the term chaote because it has more of a drive to it, an energy and a purpose which eclectic magician simply doesn't. Chaos is part of me, it's a big part of my system. That and eclectic strongly suggests that I pick and choose what suits me that week, rather than the far more careful route I actually take.

[Sypheara]

I am not a chaote but this is an interesting topic i feel like chiming in on. Eclectic is a word that needs to be reclaimed as well in light of the above context.

I have a term for people who pick and choose each week:

Play acting occultists.

It is one of the things that seriously annoy me, alongside the new age 'white' workers than sit around with their healing crystals and fake jewelry all day and deny any true work at the crossroads as a somehow evil practice / work to be shunned.

I had to stop using the word eclectic because of the very negative connotations it has acquired. I follow a tradition, but also selectively, and very carefully, sometimes incorporate workings of related paths and traditions where i see a parallel and more importantly, where the cultures are cross compatible, derive from, or influenced by own. This is done with respect, and without cultural appropriation, so that its a syncretic combination at the crossroads.

This is very different from picking a god out of myths to a to z and working with them, and i dont believe that the term eclectic should belong to that kind of working. Clueless is a more appropriate word. As such, the true meaning of Eclectic I think does apply to Tiaden as he has described his own path when that is taken into consideration.

Thoughts?

[RoseRed]

I don't know much about chaos magick. Right now, I understand it to be magick minus all the historical and cultural baggage. I think there's a preference toward explaining magick as a psychological phenomenon. And of course, there's the practice of adopting and discarding beliefs as the magician sees fit. You can have any beliefs you feel like, or even not believe in magick if that works for you. That's about all I know.

You don't need to be a Chaos Magician for the underline to hold true.

What Chaos magick started as and what it's turned into over the years, looking from the outside in, has changed, as most things are wont to do.

You don't need cultural or historical baggage to practice magic or magick.

If you don't believe in magic/k at all - what's the point?

[Procel]

As a newbie who has been reading extensively and observing all I can, I'll share what I have observed with the caveat that my opinions are coming from me and are not gospel. This is free internet knowledge and I warrantee it to be worth every penny of that.

Putting magick into a martial arts analogy, Chaos is like Jeet Koon Do or MMA. The theory is that older arts have become mired in tradition to a point where people do things because that's what the masters did. The initiate follows the form without understanding of what was between the ears and in the heart of those who did it before. Lots of people do techniques with no understanding, just because it's in the kata. Even more people think they know the 'hidden meaning' of the forms when they are, in fact, full of crap. So, every so often a 'new' master comes along and establishes a new art said to encompass the good from here and there while discarding all that crap no one knows how to use anyway. Enter Bruce Lee with JKD, and a generation later see the rise of "Mixed Martial Arts" (MMA). A generation learns anew. Progress is made. As time goes on, it becomes established enough that the training methods become 'sacred', and people start trying to move like Bruce did because he did and they don't know why, so it becomes dancing. Just exactly what Bruce was trying to get away from and just exactly what you will see in some JKD dojos.. Now, make no mistake, many JKD men are really good, and today's MMA players are head and shoulders ahead of fighters a few decades ago. Likewise, Chaos mages can indeed be powerful. Many of them are doing it with learned and intuitive understanding. And, like MMA gyms, there are new guys getting hurt because they jump in too deep or they lack a rudder. Like MMA, you rely on your coaches even if those coaches are books or the internet, and I've met good fighters who bought DVDs and followed along.

Another point where magick and martial arts are similar is the false belief in made up histories. Many people believe that Asian martial arts go back centuries. While the practice of martial arts go back a long way, few of the arts you see today are old. Tae Kwan Do is born in the late 40s, early 50s. Judo comes from the 1890s form a man who studied for a decade before that time. So on and on. They come from where they come from, but they aren't born of actual mortal combat on battlefields despite the line of crap spouted at McDojos across the land. While there is influence from earlier teaching, the 'styles' today are modern. Likewise, while magickal practices go back to the dawn of humanity (as does fighting), the established "schools" are inflienced by traditions that came before but are new. Thelima takes ancient belief as a source, but was the new kid on the block within the lifetime of some people alive today. Wiccan belief did descended from older belief, but is the descendant not the ancestor. Point is, none of it is immutable, and all of it was "new" at some time. It is all what you make of it. Treated seriously and maturely, there is power in Wiccan or Chaos or Judo. Treated lightly, you'll end up hurt.

I spent decades studying a really traditional Okinawan family style of karate. There is value to following the tradition. I have also trained with some coaches of the newer breed. There is value there as well. There is a tendency for traditionalists to look down their nose at 'modern' martial arts. "Sure, they can fight, but they have no_______ ." Whatever. Likewise, the MMA guys point and laugh at guys in pajamas doing the dance of death. I see this mirrored in occult discussion. Likewise, I see traditiional Budo men going to sweaty gyms to get what they can and I see MMA guys decide to folow a path...that includes.... katas (gasp).

Wisdom is where you find it, if you have the insight to pick it up and keep it.

[Ramscha]

Greetings chaotes and friends,

I don't know much about chaos magick. Right now, I understand it to be magick minus all the historical and cultural baggage. I think there's a preference toward explaining magick as a psychological phenomenon. And of course, there's the practice of adopting and discarding beliefs as the magician sees fit. You can have any beliefs you feel like, or even not believe in magick if that works for you. That's about all I know.

So now for the question. First, what's the point of doing chaos magick? Since you change beliefs on a weekly basis, is there any motive for practicing chaos magick besides thaumaturgy? Is it simply a strategy for casting spells more efficiently? Second, what's the difference between calling yourself a chaote as opposed to a syncretic or eclectic magician?

I'm not interested in reading an entire book about chaos magick. I just want these questions answered, hopefully by chaotes and non chaotes. Thanks!

I guess I can only answer this for myself but I will in order to add my part to the picture:

- Chaos magick in general has no real goal. It is magick dedicated to chaos. To say it with a metapher I once heard "The chaos which can be described is no chaos anymore". The goal is given by the one who practices the magick and sort of "channels the chaos".

- We don't change beliefes on daily basis, at least that is not what I saw from the practicioners I know. Believe Systems are used as catalysiers for personal development, some stay years in one paradigm, some just use it for one singly magickal operation. But it is not like changing clothes and say "hey, no I wear buddhism, isn't that fancy?". A Khaot who goes into a believe system, really believes and sticks to the paradigm in the moment. But before that happens, it is a matter of research and intense preparation, a matter of understanding and intuition, not only the intellectual grasp.

- I cannot say if chaos magick is more efficient then others, it is simply as system as are others. How is the efficacy of magick even defined?

- Beeing a chaot is sort of label same as saying "I am an alchemist". Other fancy labels from this area are discordians, Khaots, Khaoists and Ra knows what else...

Ramscha

[manofsands]

The theory is that older arts have become mired in tradition to a point where people do things because that's what the masters did. The initiate follows the form without understanding of what was between the ears and in the heart of those who did it before.

I think this is a good point, and it's seen in magic, martial arts, religion and more. I'm gonna throw another wrench in works and use Christianity as my analogy. Many Christians fret over verses and meanings of the religion. WWJD? He would decide for himself. Jesus was a rebel. He was born a Jew, but followed his own path. He didn't create Christianity, those trying to follow his lead did. If they were following the heart of his teachings, it would be to establish your own connection with God and find your own answers.

I find so much value in the practise of listening to ones own 'Tuning Fork of Truth'... listening to your gut, making your own descions and taking responsibility for them. Some don't even know where there compass is so can only follow. I'm not saying that of people following a certain tradition, but only those who follow blindly or hide behind a tradition while throwing rocks at others they don't understand.

Much like the process of alchemy, I try to take all I hear/read, eviscerate, boil , churn, distill... and pull out if it what is essential. That's what Chaos Magick (Freeform Magick) is to me.


By the way. If there was a Jesus, I don't think he was as described in the bible. After awhile the influence of his true story was hijacked for a 'higher cause'... and this probably happens often to trailblazers who aren't looking behind them

[Sypheara]

The problem with creating your own tradition of martial art or occultism though, is that 99% of time its done by people who are NOWHERE near masters, or have any sort of clue at all.

Thats why you get HORRIFIC lines of Iaido that are completely ineffective, taught by people who never even acquired their first dan grading, nevermind did 30 years of solid experience.

The same thing is in Occultism. Often people think they can just hit the ground running and create something exceptionally effective, without any foundation or knowledge at all, and that it will be as worthwhile as a worked tradition of collective experience over many decades.

I see it as a very, very modern and western view fraught with horrific risk and the chance to simply lock yourself into a very ineffective paradigm. I think this is also in part due to in the Occult world, the fact that in the west we were severed from many of our occult traditions by mainstream religion shutting it down wherever it could. In the rush to establish new traditions, many are in danger of not drawing from our own cultural occult heritage, but instead spread it very thin and cultural appropriate as much as possible in a pick and choose manner. This does not result in an effective system, but a hodgepodge that will increasingly break down as its worked at deeper levels.

Unless you are a master with decades of experience, you shouldn't in my mind be trying to invent whole new systems or attempting to forcibly mix systems you are not initiated in or have significant knowledge of into your own hybrid system. Then of course, claim its something its not, and try and get others to follow your incorrect teaching. Work them in your way, expand on things if given insights by the spirits, but also be respectful of others teachings especially if they have years more experience than yourself.

That is the definition of Hubris. Listening to the 'Tuning Fork of Truth' is only good if you are not being guided by your mistaken mind believing you have all the knowledge and skill without putting in a shitton of time and effort both in technique and actual work in contacting the spirits. Thats not to say it cannot be done, but in my mind it requires a minimum of a decades experience, and a genuine connection to the spirit world, not theorycrafting from books.

To go back to the Iaido example again. The reason why the existent koryu schools exist is because the people who taught them didnt get murdered during a time when swords were actually used for self defence and offence. The other less effective schools died out, because they were ineffective. For someone to then come up and change that is to do so in a time where that selective pressure is no longer applied - we dont have swordmasters who had to deal with the threat of death by a sword everyday. Therefore the tradition preserves the original techniques without them being tainted, and once the original teaching has been transmitted over a 40 year period, then the student has throughly learned the current curriculum and can then add to it. He understands what works, and what might need adapting. In this way the art grows, and improves, but does not lose its essence and the valuable information from before it.

When we go about changing or incorporating things this is the level of seriousness we should consider it. And not just throw things away we dont agree with at face value, without exploring them very deeply first. Some things might not be palatable on the surface, but necessary in certain situations.

For example, i use the extreme one of animal sacrifice. Many people will balk at even considering why that might need to be done, etc, and cut it out of their potential system entirely because they personally dont agree with it, despite it being a tool that can release vast forms of energy and being necessary to open certain gateways. Therefore, their path is made weaker because their own belief does not actually square with magickal reality.

[Desecrated]

Changing your belief once every week is one of the practices Carrol mentions in liber null.
It's not something permanent, but something you can do a couple of weeks or months until you get tired of it.
It's basically just a way to force your brain to think wider.

Plasticity.



What's the point of magic.

.....Why not?

[Frumens]

Thank you for the answers everybody. As usual, they are superb in quality and quantity.

What's the point of magic.

.....Why not?

Why did you choose to begin studying magic? Have your motivations change?

[Procel]

Thank you for the answers everybody. As usual, they are superb in quality and quantity.

What's the point of magic.

.....Why not?

Why did you choose to begin studying magic? Have your motivations change?

I'll jump right in and give what I see as the naked answer to that. In a word - power. No, let me capitalize that. Power. Yes, that's better.

I firmly believe that people (with the occasional exception to prove the rule) seek occult knowledge for power. One reaches for the brass ring of magick, to gain power. I know some people will deny it even to themselves. "No, I seek only knowledge." Well 'knowledge is power' is the old saying; so cut the crap and know it's all about power. Some want power over other people. Maybe power over the oposite sex, maybe power over people who they percieve as having power over them. Some just want power over their own lives, their own minds. That is noble indeed. Others seek power over life and death itself. Power to make reality bend to their will. To their True Will. This is all about making reality do our bidding through the force of our will. Creating reality through magical will. That is pure, raw power. Anybody who wants to practice magick wants to have and use power.

Now please don't mistake me here. I'm not trying to cut anybody down for wanting what they want. I want what I want. I think everybody will in some ways change what it is that they want over time, but this is still about power. While young guys just want to get laid, as they age they will want more mature things. The aging occultist is a different person than the young one was. People's goals may change, but who they are does not. It may be about a different view of power than it used to be, but magical "Will work" is about power.

[manofsands]

That is the definition of Hubris. Listening to the 'Tuning Fork of Truth' is only good if you are not being guided by your mistaken mind believing you have all the knowledge and skill without putting in a shitton of time and effort both in technique and actual work in contacting the spirits.

It's not hubris but self-reliance. And I don't think the "Tuning Fork of Truth" will always give you the universally right answer, but always the right answer for you. If you understand something wrong, make the wrong choice, then you learn from it at a core level. You will have no one to answer to for your understanding but yourself. And that gets hard wired.

I have personal definitions of intelligence and wisdom. Intelligence is facts, information, lists. Wisdom is an overall understanding of a subject, often times without knowing all the facts, information and lists. Intelligence is good for fill in the blank responses. With wisdom you can anticipate reactions of the subject in different situations that may have never arisen before. Intelligence (in the beginning) is book smarts and following the leader. Wisdom comes from experience and interaction.

While wisdom may have a slower start in the building of ones foundation... it is stronger, unshakable. Intelligence will fail in situations where the pegs don't fill the hole.

Maybe, freeform isn't for everyone. There is no right path for everyone. Maybe it depends where one is on their path.

And, just for reference, the magick I'm talking about isn't that which involves spirit help. I am not going to suppose what the right route is for that.

[Sypheara]

That is the definition of Hubris. Listening to the 'Tuning Fork of Truth' is only good if you are not being guided by your mistaken mind believing you have all the knowledge and skill without putting in a shitton of time and effort both in technique and actual work in contacting the spirits.

It's not hubris but self-reliance. And I don't think the "Tuning Fork of Truth" will always give you the universally right answer, but always the right answer for you. If you understand something wrong, make the wrong choice, then you learn from it at a core level. You will have no one to answer to for your understanding but yourself. And that gets hard wired.

I have personal definitions of intelligence and wisdom. Intelligence is facts, information, lists. Wisdom is an overall understanding of a subject, often times without knowing all the facts, information and lists. Intelligence is good for fill in the blank responses. With wisdom you can anticipate reactions of the subject in different situations that may have never arisen before. Intelligence (in the beginning) is book smarts and following the leader. Wisdom comes from experience and interaction.

While wisdom may have a slower start in the building of ones foundation... it is stronger, unshakable. Intelligence will fail in situations where the pegs don't fill the hole.

Maybe, freeform isn't for everyone. There is no right path for everyone. Maybe it depends where one is on their path.

And, just for reference, the magick I'm talking about isn't that which involves spirit help. I am not going to suppose what the right route is for that.

You can't be self reliant without first having a base amount of knowledge though usually. For example, when new guys come to the forum and ask, the first thing they are told to do is develop the basic skillset before they go charging off full of enthusiasm and then hit the knowledge wall. That usually comes when they start to realise magick has actual effects, and actual rules, being something that is existent and not just a mental construct.

I agree with you when you say that 'Intelligence (in the beginning) is book smarts and following the leader. Wisdom comes from experience and interaction.', but also that intelligence is to know the bounds of your own limitations, and how to carefully expand your horzions without biting off more than you can chew. This is especially improtant when we are all our own teacher - we dont have teachers telling us to warn us that they are dangers ahead. Unless you take a spirit as a teacher, which is a good way to progress or make friends with long standing and very experienced occultists. Those steps in my mind should not be skipped if possible.

When you say ' Intelligence will fail in situations where the pegs don't fill the hole.' i also agree, that is my point in why people without the experience etc who go crazy with that hammer and then break the toy set apart, or worse, with enough strength do ram incorrect shapes in the wrong hole, and getting the set back into working order requires those pieces to be prised out and rearranged so it works.

Freeform without any basic understanding is really the not way forward, and is akin to searching blind. You can only construct what you have knowledge of, and without any actual connection, especially when you are first starting your path, you ARE going to fuck it up. Innate knowledge taken into account Take that from personal experience, I learned the hard way I had to return tp the basics and focus on my own basic connection to my spiritual teachers.

You are right, there is no right path for everyone, when it comes to expression and how the gnosis is reached / obtained that is a very personal thing. However we should not let this from remembering we all live in one reality, and the gnosis gained is real information about how magick and the spirit world works in that reality.

Therefore this gnosis applies to everyone. To take a physical example, Gravity does not care whether you are christian, an animist, or an athiest, and believe that it affects your understanding of reality or not. if you jump out of a plane without a parachute, with enough height, you will hit the ground at terminal velocity, and almost certainly die.

Similarly, again to use the spirit example, the dark dead don't care if you are a christian, an athiest, or an animist, they will still launch an attack against you, more so if you are a juicy target (easily penetrated due to a weak aura).This will cause mental and physical damage, regardless of whether it is 'believed' to be occurring. The cancer that could develop from it, for example, is still going to cause your lungs to fill with blood.

Occultism needs to move past the point of modern relativism, and realise we all inhabit a shared space rather than solipsistic paths that completely don't cross or have any relevance or influence on each other.If this was the case, all conversation on our paths on this forum would be completely irrelevant, and useless outside of personal fantasy play. We also need to get over the fact that, some paths are weak branches of the tree.

I know that probably doesn't make me very popular to say, but it is what i feel quite passionate about. I have never been much of a fan of Chaos Magick, but its important for me to say the above is not a veiled attack on it. I can see why it does cause effects and can be utilised.

Also to answer an earlier poster, yes, most people who are into the occult do it either out of duty, or to increase their own power. Neither of these are a bad reason for doing occultism. However a person who rushes off to grab power that they are not ready for, or worse, steal it from sources that arnt their own, will be burned. Sometimes permanently.

[Desecrated]

Thank you for the answers everybody. As usual, they are superb in quality and quantity.

What's the point of magic.

.....Why not?

Why did you choose to begin studying magic? Have your motivations change?

Let me quote Richard Dawkins.
"Because it works"

[RoseRed]

I'll jump right in and give what I see as the naked answer to that. In a word - power. No, let me capitalize that. Power. Yes, that's better.

I firmly believe that people (with the occasional exception to prove the rule) seek occult knowledge for power. One reaches for the brass ring of magick, to gain power. I know some people will deny it even to themselves. "No, I seek only knowledge." Well 'knowledge is power' is the old saying; so cut the crap and know it's all about power. Some want power over other people. Maybe power over the oposite sex, maybe power over people who they percieve as having power over them. Some just want power over their own lives, their own minds. That is noble indeed. Others seek power over life and death itself. Power to make reality bend to their will. To their True Will. This is all about making reality do our bidding through the force of our will. Creating reality through magical will. That is pure, raw power. Anybody who wants to practice magick wants to have and use power.

Now please don't mistake me here. I'm not trying to cut anybody down for wanting what they want. I want what I want. I think everybody will in some ways change what it is that they want over time, but this is still about power. While young guys just want to get laid, as they age they will want more mature things. The aging occultist is a different person than the young one was. People's goals may change, but who they are does not. It may be about a different view of power than it used to be, but magical "Will work" is about power.

because it's worth repeating

[manofsands]

You can't be self reliant without first having a base amount of knowledge though usually.

The majority of your post seems to hinge on one ones level of experience.
I wrote...

Maybe, freeform isn't for everyone. There is no right path for everyone. Maybe it depends where one is on their path.

I should have expanded this statement. When I said " Maybe it depends where one is on their path" I was talking specifically about ones level of experience and knowledge. And (to me) this is more than the amount they have gained in this lifetime. The definitions I gave of Intelligence and Wisdom come into play here.

I have personal definitions of intelligence and wisdom. Intelligence is facts, information, lists. Wisdom is an overall understanding of a subject, often times without knowing all the facts, information and lists. Intelligence is good for fill in the blank responses. With wisdom you can anticipate reactions of the subject in different situations that may have never arisen before. Intelligence (in the beginning) is book smarts and following the leader. Wisdom comes from experience and interaction.

(I think I have stated this in other threads, but...) I believe in reincarnation and spiritual evolution. We go thru lives as lessons. Learn from experience and grow. I believe that in between lives we drop our personality and intelligence but retain our wisdom at a soul level. This may put one who is more spiritually evolved with their wisdom on par with someone who is less spiritually evolved with more intelligence. The 'intelligent' one may 'know' more right from the start, but the 'wise' one will have more of an innate understanding than the learn'ed one. I would not suggest free forming to a beginner, and I have posted against it before.

I agree with you when you say that 'Intelligence (in the beginning) is book smarts and following the leader. Wisdom comes from experience and interaction.', but also that intelligence is to know the bounds of your own limitations, and how to carefully expand your horzions without biting off more than you can chew. This is especially important when we are all our own teacher - we dont have teachers telling us to warn us that they are dangers ahead. Unless you take a spirit as a teacher, which is a good way to progress or make friends with long standing and very experienced occultists. Those steps in my mind should not be skipped if possible.

I wrote...

And, just for reference, the magick I'm talking about isn't that which involves spirit help. I am not going to suppose what the right route is for that.

Maybe it's about personal perspective here. Your magick (I assume) is deeply connected with spirit work (as I am sure it is with many) and in venturing in this territory I would agree to wander without a guide is to risk getting lost in a bad way. I don't directly work with spirits right now and I personally don't think that getting a spirit teacher is a good idea for a beginner. I would think this is a more advanced step rather than one that "should not be skipped if possible". Outside of magick involving spirit help, I believe with some experience and knowledge one can progress and push boundries without too much risk.

Therefore this gnosis applies to everyone. To take a physical example, Gravity does not care whether you are christian, an animist, or an athiest, and believe that it affects your understanding of reality or not.

I agree and this is kind of my central point. Truth is Truth. (I feel I have to repeat this for the point) With enough experience/knowledge, to vagabond, to wander, to explore without a map is an adventure of the self. It is good to read and to follow and to learn, but at some point we must cast off. Experience. If we stick in a set system and veer not to the left or the right what have we become except a copy or minion of the one we are following, of the one who DID venture out to seek answers on their own. Nobody knows the whole Truth. And it is just as dangerous to find your way thru someone elses truth as to seek it on your own (again, this does not include spirit work).

[RoseRed]

I get where you're coming from but I'm with S on this one, dude. Yes, it is an 'advanced' step in that it's beyond most of your 101 books BUT there are some skill sets that are required later on. It doesn't matter what branch of the occult you go into - all roads lead to Rome and all that jazz.

With enough experience/knowledge, to vagabond, to wander, to explore without a map is an adventure of the self. It is good to read and to follow and to learn, but at some point we must cast off. Experience. If we stick in a set system and veer not to the left or the right what have we become except a copy or minion of the one we are following, of the one who DID venture out to seek answers on their own. Nobody knows the whole Truth.

Yeah. Absolutely.

And it is just as dangerous to find your way thru someone elses truth as to seek it on your own (again, this does not include spirit work).

It's less dangerous to know the guideposts than to go in totally lost.

[manofsands]

Yes, it is an 'advanced' step in that it's beyond most of your 101 books BUT there are some skill sets that are required later on. It doesn't matter what branch of the occult you go into - all roads lead to Rome and all that jazz.

I find this interesting (and I always respect your opinion, as well as Sypheara)... You believe that true magical progression requires a relationship with other-planar entities?

[Ramscha]

In response to Syphearas post I want to quote a saying I read the other day in Frater Maligs Chaosrunick: "You can't deal with something you don't even know". [happy2]

[RoseRed]

I believe that true magical progression requires advancing and adding new skill sets to your tool box.

Not everyone is built for spirit work. Not everyone can or will pay the price that's required.

I think that once a person begins spirit work that there's really no going back.

Is it the 'pinnacle' of being ___insert title here___ ? No. I think that there are many ways that magic and magical ability can manifest. They're different but I'm not gonna say better or worse. Apples and oranges are both fruit. They both have skin, seeds and flesh. if one is better than the other that's due to a personal preference - whether it's the way their taste buds were formed (inherent) or a conscious choice on which is better for the recipe.

You also have to keep in mind that Ceremonial Magick, Hedgewitchery and (Neo)Shamanism are all based in spirit work. In one the spirit sits in a triangle and takes orders, in another you form Allies and Enemies, and in yet another you work with the spirit to attain a goal. And yet - aside from the stereotype - all 3 of the latter examples fit for all 3 of the former.

I think most people in general and especially occultists of any flavor have the innate ability to interact with spirits. i just do. Some a little. Some a lot. Some can't turn it off. I don't think it's so much the ability to work with spirits - I think it's the level of ability that we're discussing here. As an Animist I believe that when you add a specific part of a plant as a spell ingredient that part of the reason it works is because of the Spirit of said plant. That's also working on a Spirit level. Do plant spirits travel across the planes? I never thought about it before. My first thought is no but how the hell do I know where plants go when they meditate or if they do at all? Is it only the brain that creates thoughts? If it is then how could we have thought in between?

What appears on the surface as a simple questions turns out to be one of the core questions. That's what I call those seemingly simple thoughts that grow and snowball into an entire new understanding of a principle just being grasped.

[manofsands]

What appears on the surface as a simple questions turns out to be one of the core questions. That's what I call those seemingly simple thoughts that grow and snowball into an entire new understanding of a principle just being grasped.

Agreed. Very interesting. Something to think on. Thanx.

[manofsands]

Not everyone is built for spirit work. Not everyone can or will pay the price that's required.

I think that once a person begins spirit work that there's really no going back.

Is this the 'Ring Pass Not'?... because intuitively it has felt like it,... and has been a line I have stood before and looked across yet have a little more than hesitation to cross.

As an Animist I believe that when you add a specific part of a plant as a spell ingredient that part of the reason it works is because of the Spirit of said plant. That's also working on a Spirit level.

I think I am an Animist as well. That is where you believe everything has spirit,... animals, plants, rocks,.. right? That is why I used the term other-planar entities (I think extraplanar is more righter). There is spirit on every level. I am not as hesitate to deal with elementals and spirits in conjunction with the physical (etheric and even astral) plane, but I assume the teachers you talk of are from a level a little harder to reach. Is that right? In my ignorance of spirit work I truly don't know if there is a difference.

Im not up on my terminology. Is there a term that differentiates between magick specific to the self and magick with the the help of extraplanar entities?... or do the terms only apply to specific use, such as invocation, evocation and demonology... all of which deal with entity assistance? I'm starting to think the question itself is getting muddled because there can be evo/invocation of entities in the 'close planes' as well as those more 'distant', yes? Is there any delineation which clarifies this better?

[RoseRed]

I find that I keep coming back to this conversation. I know it started with Chaos Magick but it's touched on so many different areas of the occult and magic that I think some of it's getting lost. I'm going to go up several posts and work my way thru this thread again.

Sypheara Eclectic is a word that needs to be reclaimed as well in light of the above context.

I have a term for people who pick and choose each week: Play acting occultists.

It is one of the things that seriously annoy me, alongside the new age 'white' workers than sit around with their healing crystals and fake jewelry all day and deny any true work at the crossroads as a somehow evil practice / work to be shunned.

I had to stop using the word eclectic because of the very negative connotations it has acquired. I follow a tradition, but also selectively, and very carefully, sometimes incorporate workings of related paths and traditions where i see a parallel and more importantly, where the cultures are cross compatible, derive from, or influenced by own. This is done with respect, and without cultural appropriation, so that its a syncretic combination at the crossroads.

This is very different from picking a god out of myths to a to z and working with them, and i dont believe that the term eclectic should belong to that kind of working. Clueless is a more appropriate word.

I like the word eclectic. I also don't care much for how it's being used lately but I'm sure that'll change with time as well.

I think that those 'white workers' who believe crossroads work is evil is based in fear. Fear of what's out there. Fear of what's inside themselves. It's a very unbalanced way to practice. As with anything else - once those scales tip too far to either side - things fall apart. I also think that for some people it's a necessary (if not utterly annoying) part of their path. The ones that annoy the hell out of me are the ones that refuse to believe that there is merit in any other form of practice. And the sad part is - a lot of where that comes from is based on Christian upbringings. It's hard to get past your childhood and the things that we learned when we were little.

manofsands Much like the process of alchemy, I try to take all I hear/read, eviscerate, boil , churn, distill... and pull out if it what is essential. That's what Chaos Magick (Freeform Magick) is to me.

There's been a lot of chat in this thread about learning the basics, establishing core skills, advancing one's skills, etc. Yes, S and I both talk a lot about building your foundation. The problem that I have with the quote above - if you consider the basics to be knowing what wheat looks like and what chaff looks like and how to differentiate between the two of them then yes, you can pull out what is essential. Without having that foundation how is anyone to know which is the wheat and which is the chaff? A person could end up throwing out the good stuff and starve over the winter.

Sypheara The same thing is in Occultism. Often people think they can just hit the ground running and create something exceptionally effective, without any foundation or knowledge at all, and that it will be as worthwhile as a worked tradition of collective experience over many decades

Oh, please. How many times have you come across someone that's read a couple books, done a ritual or two, asked if they did it correctly and were creating their own paradigm a week later? It happens. And others, who have no foundation, follow it.

S Unless you are a master with decades of experience, you shouldn't in my mind be trying to invent whole new systems or attempting to forcibly mix systems you are not initiated in or have significant knowledge of into your own hybrid system. Then of course, claim its something its not, and try and get others to follow your incorrect teaching. Work them in your way, expand on things if given insights by the spirits, but also be respectful of others teachings especially if they have years more experience than yourself.

There are exceptions to that. They're few and far between but every now and then you come across someone that was just born to this and they thrive. There's one witchlet I know that just blows my mind. She is quite special. (different person than my kid).

Forget trying to create a whole new system - I tried teaching my kid. She had no interest in building a solid foundation. She wanted to be able to practice like Mom after a week. Her grasp of advanced concepts and her ability to wield magic is surprising for one so young. She had no patience for going back to the beginning and trying to understand why it works or is. She has a good grasp on foundational concepts but no patience to put them in perspective. Maybe some day. Until then - she'll do her thing and come to me to find out how to fix it and explain what went wrong when things don't work right.

Listening to the 'Tuning Fork of Truth' is only good if you are not being guided by your mistaken mind believing you have all the knowledge and skill without putting in a shitton of time and effort both in technique and actual work in contacting the spirits.

Once again - I agree. If you believe something is true you'll act on it as if it were true. It may not be.

I think the shit ton of time and effort in technique, practice and work kind of got lost in talking about spirit work. But at the same time - if you put in all that time and effort into a practice that is not 'true' (or accurate or even doesn't work) then it's a lot of wasted time and effort to find out what you thought was true is not. Yes, the truth is the truth but we don't always know what that is.

and then this is what happens:

S Therefore, their path is made weaker because their own belief does not actually square with magickal reality.

manofsands And I don't think the "Tuning Fork of Truth" will always give you the universally right answer, but always the right answer for you.

What exactly is it that you're listening to and calling the 'Tuning Fork of Truth' that gives you answers?

manofsands And, just for reference, the magick I'm talking about isn't that which involves spirit help

Ok, what kind of magick are you talking about then?

S I agree with you when you say that 'Intelligence (in the beginning) is book smarts and following the leader. Wisdom comes from experience and interaction.', but also that intelligence is to know the bounds of your own limitations, and how to carefully expand your horzions without biting off more than you can chew. This is especially improtant when we are all our own teacher - we dont have teachers telling us to warn us that they are dangers ahead. Unless you take a spirit as a teacher, which is a good way to progress or make friends with long standing and very experienced occultists. Those steps in my mind should not be skipped if possible.

Once again, the practical advice (underlined) is overshadowed in conversation by taking a spirit teacher. Spirits/entities choose who they'll work with. This is not an option for everyone. Making friends with advanced practitioners is - unless you're a total dick and no one wants to deal with you - but even then there's a mentor out there somewhere.

S Similarly, again to use the spirit example, the dark dead don't care if you are a christian, an athiest, or an animist, they will still launch an attack against you, more so if you are a juicy target (easily penetrated due to a weak aura).This will cause mental and physical damage, regardless of whether it is 'believed' to be occurring. The cancer that could develop from it, for example, is still going to cause your lungs to fill with blood.

Agreed.

You (general you) don't have to believe in them. Just like you don't need to believe in gravity to be stuck to the skin of the planet. They're just hungry and usually mean.

S We also need to get over the fact that, some paths are weak branches of the tree. I know that probably doesn't make me very popular to say,

No, it probably doesn't but it's true anyway. The weaker branches serve their purpose. And fluffy bunnies have made it much easier to hide in plain sight and be more socially acceptable now-a-days. (Just one example).

S However a person who rushes off to grab power that they are not ready for, or worse, steal it from sources that arnt their own, will be burned. Sometimes permanently.

Oh, I've seen that.

manofsands to S The majority of your post seems to hinge on one ones level of experience

It's a different perspective. Looking up at the mountain you're about to climb has a very different view than sitting on the peak. Just try not to break your ankle on the way back down.

manofsands Outside of magick involving spirit help, I believe with some experience and knowledge one can progress and push boundries without too much risk.

Not if you're actually wielding magick.

manofsands to me You believe that true magical progression requires a relationship with other-planar entities?

I've actually given this some thought. Along certain branches of the occult - yes. But that's not until later. There is lots of progress that can be made before reaching that point and not everyone does reach that point.

[manofsands]

Ya know,... I really have no ground to speak in this discussion. I have done almost no magickal work, let alone true spirit work. I can't and don't judge that path. I'm interested and scared of it. I'm just grateful that there are posters such as this forum has willing to share and put up with my question and assumptions.


Already hijacked this thread enuff, will probably sprout a few topics off of it shortly ( away from my computer, on vacation this week)

[RoseRed]

It's not a matter of putting up with you, dear. It's conversation.