The curious art of Grave-Robbing;

[Haelos]

I'm just wondering; How do spiritual entities, demons, Gods, and the like, tolerate Grave Robbing?

Especially entities dealing with dead spirits, and dead spirits themselves;

Anyone have any secondhand knowledge about a grave robber?

It's a truly curious act, and it leads me to some questions of my own. I wonder what you guys have to say on the matter.

[Desecrated]

That is what sacrifices are for.
You appease the spirits before you start to dig around.

The book Dorothy Morrison - 'utterly wicked' has a whole chapter on how to behave on a graveyard, what deity to talk to, offerings, entry incantations and so on.

[Haelos]

That is what sacrifices are for.
You appease the spirits before you start to dig around.

The book Dorothy Morrison - 'utterly wicked' has a whole chapter on how to behave on a graveyard, what deity to talk to, offerings, entry incantations and so on.

Thanks for this recommendation. I'll be looking into it.

[the_spiral]

Etiquette is a must with any type of graveyard work. You need to pay the gatekeeper and get permission first. Then he or she will handle the spirits of the dead for you. They usually require payment too, especially if you're taking dirt or relics. There are different customs in different traditions but it's pretty much non-negotiable for doing cemetery magic safely. But I can't imagine people who rob graves for fun care too much about etiquette or safety.

[Haelos]

I've been meaning to get a response here, but I had to do some reading first.

Desecrated managed to hook me up with a copy of Utterly Wicked, as it was proving ridiculously elusive, and I don't have the extra holiday cash to waste on myself.

After reading the chapter in question, I have a few things I need to both confirm with others' and try for myself.

First of all, the Author speaks in great favor of the Goddess Oya, and Her role in protecting the Gate of the cemetery.
Now, while that is her role, in some places I've read, it seems she has focuses in a lot of other places significantly more than her work within the cemetery. I also read that she doesn't live in the cemetery, but in the markets.
What do you guys think of this reverence?

Secondly, the Author's main focus in this chapter is in the collection of graveyard dirt. She makes great focus in building a relationship with the spirit from whom's grave you're taking the dirt. Obvious courtesy and compassion-type thing.
What if you wanted to take dirt just from the paths or the gate, or in-between graves, or in the general area itself? Who would you talk to then?
I've never done any work in the graveyard, myself, and I'm not sure the whole deal to go through.

And again, what about the graverobbing? Would you simply rely on Oya to keep any spirit you're taking from at bay? (I'd hope most of these spirits have passed on by now and reconnected with their higher-selves.)
Would forming a good personal relationship with a spirit give you access to taking their things?


Also, what have you guys heard being offered as payment for these sorts of things? So far, Copper (in the form of pennies), wine, and Dimes have all been mentioned as possible offerings. However, all three of those come from Utterly Wicked, written by (what-I-Assume-is) an American witch, with a very witchy perspective. Not particularly my own.


A weird question, if there ever was one; Is there any literature dealing with cemetery work from an Hermetic point of view?
Most of my proper initiation follows Bardon's teachings, and I've progressed on my own more than listening to him, in some cases. Which has been both good and bad.
However, I have a very firm outline of my practice that relies on how he teaches, and I have trouble seeing things from the point of view that requires such things as graveyard dirt for props.
Poppets, Gris-Gris, witche's knots and bottles; these are first-year things for me. Some people spend their entire life in such low works. I can't seem to think like that anymore.


You guys have both assisted tremendously. Anything else you can offer would be icing, and still highly appreciated.
Thanks for your amazing and timely help so far.

[cyberdemon]

Well, graves in general are highly charged places associated with hauntings and so on..
Islamic tradition is to offer a greeting to the buried when entering or even passing by a cemetery. They don't mention any gatekeepers (but of course a ton of moderator-activities active moderators ie. demons/angels/deities are totally never mentioned anyway). The perfect time to rob a grave would be during the first 3 days after death and burial, a period believed to be when the departed soul floats around closest, then till the 40th day post mortem they hang less and less around and become more acceptable to their condition of deadness and wait for judgement day. The 40th day is sometimes marked by ceremony by the departed's family.

So, this is an indication of when to not rob a grave if you want to avoid some form of backlash..

[Desecrated]

What do you guys think of this reverence?

It's common for gods to have more then one role or one dwelling. Different traditions might have different interpretations as well. If you do Greek magic, you would probably try to talk to hades, but the idea of there being a god or deity in control of the dead, or the graveyard and showing respect to that one before undertaking this kind of work seems to be central in many traditions.

What if you wanted to take dirt just from the paths or the gate, or in-between graves, or in the general area itself? Who would you talk to then?

Yeah gravedirt and graveyard dirt are two different things. If you are going to take dirt from the church grounds you need to get the permission of the deity protecting that. Usually some sort of saint or martyr or anything tied to the church. Founders or other old priest can something hang around in spirits and keep shit going, so you need their permission.

And again, what about the graverobbing? Would you simply rely on Oya to keep any spirit you're taking from at bay? (I'd hope most of these spirits have passed on by now and reconnected with their higher-selves.)
Would forming a good personal relationship with a spirit give you access to taking their things?

The gatekeeper "owns" the cemetery, to do any work inside you need that permission, then when you start digging in somebodies grave you need that spirits permission. And you have to make a deal with that one yourself.
Dirt, bones, clothing or even coffin nails are used in different magic workings and they all need to be bargain for.

Also, what have you guys heard being offered as payment for these sorts of things? So far, Copper (in the form of pennies), wine, and Dimes have all been mentioned as possible offerings. However, all three of those come from Utterly Wicked, written by (what-I-Assume-is) an American witch, with a very witchy perspective. Not particularly my own.

Then you pay with what you think is appropriate.
Since this is illegal and I of course have never done it, I would theoretically keep some coins from different times and then pay the spirit in the currency they would be used to. And/or pay with what ever I think is common around my area. If the guy was a smoker in real life, I might bring a pack of cigarettes, Theoretically.

A weird question, if there ever was one; Is there any literature dealing with cemetery work from an Hermetic point of view?
Most of my proper initiation follows Bardon's teachings, and I've progressed on my own more than listening to him, in some cases. Which has been both good and bad.
However, I have a very firm outline of my practice that relies on how he teaches, and I have trouble seeing things from the point of view that requires such things as graveyard dirt for props.
Poppets, Gris-Gris, witche's knots and bottles; these are first-year things for me. Some people spend their entire life in such low works. I can't seem to think like that anymore.

Someone more knowledgeable on bardon has to give you a full answer here, but yes, there is a difference between high magic and low magic.
Some like working with human spirits, some like working with angels and demons.

[Desecrated]

(I'd hope most of these spirits have passed on by now and reconnected with their higher-selves.)
Would forming a good personal relationship with a spirit give you access to taking their things?

Here is a good book that talks about this specifically. It's only 4 dollars as a E-book.

http://bookstore.balboapress.com/Produc ... dings.aspx


Anyhow, she talks about what kind of graves and what kind of spirits you should aim for. If the spirit has departed/passed on, it's basically just an empty grave and it has no power. You need to find the graves where the spirit is still bound to it.
The dirt/bone is an actual physical link to that spirit.
She also describes how to contact the spirit and what to do with them afterwards.

[the_spiral]

Question: if you see sympathetic magick as "low" and beneath you, why are you interested in grave robbing and graveyard dirt? Cemetery magic originates from similar traditions, operates by similar mechanisms, and many of its guiding principles were discovered by people you'd think wasted their lives on "first year" stuff. I've also seen people with backgrounds in "high"/ceremonial magick get into trouble entering this area thinking it will be easy for them. Not trying to discourage you at all, just curious about how your interest in Hermeticism has led you here.

And I haven't read Utterly Wicked yet but Oya is an orisha from the Yoruba religion and yes, she does a lot more than just guarding cemeteries. I'm not sure how she'd react to being approached by someone outside her lineage for grave-robbing purposes. You could always leave an offering and ask for her protection but that's no guarantee. I'd check with someone from that tradition about how to approach her if you feel called to work with her. The ADR/ATR spirits can be pretty intense if you haven't encountered their current before.

Gatekeepers aren't necessarily deities but higher spirits assigned to guard the dead. These differ by region, tradition, even cemetery. For example, in my region many people work with the Ghede, the Orisha or the Catholic saints. I'd knock on the gate of my home cemetery, leave my payment and negotiate with the local gatekeeper(s) for whatever work I plan to do. This covers ritual workings, protection from harmful dead, and collecting unclaimed graveyard dirt. If you want to take dirt or relics from an individual grave a separate contract is needed with that spirit (hypothetically! I do not condone stealing human remains under any circumstances.) Payment also differs by tradition and the spirit's request but often includes coins, fresh water, live flowers and/or liquor. If I contract a dead spirit to work for me with satisfactory results I usually offer psychopomp work afterward. Not all spirits want this, but the ones who do are desperate for it so it's a compassionate act if you have the ability. The main things are 1) to protect yourself and 2) to establish a mutually beneficial deal, because you can't get away with ripping off these spirits. They're in more pain, have more free time and much less to lose than you.

That's about all I feel comfortable discussing on the topic in a public forum [shh] Unfortunately few *reliable* books exist on necromancy and cemetery magick due to the risk factors, so it's often passed on through oral tradition or taught directly by the spirits. This isn't an open or well-trodden path like modern Hermeticism or Bardon's IIH. So if you reach an impasse in your research, can't find a good teacher or group and feel your mojo is strong enough, your best option is to sit in meditation or trance in a local cemetery, contact the gatekeeper and ask him/her about learning the protocol directly. It also helps to find a "home" cemetery and get to know the spirits there, and to establish a relationship with an appropriate death deity to guide you through the work safely. Or you could just pour out some malt liquor, rob a grave and hope for the best [crazy]

[Haelos]

Question: if you see sympathetic magick as "low" and beneath you, why are you interested in grave robbing and graveyard dirt? Cemetery magic originates from similar traditions, operates by similar mechanisms, and many of its guiding principles were discovered by people you'd think wasted their lives on "first year" stuff. I've also seen people with backgrounds in "high"/ceremonial magick get into trouble entering this area thinking it will be easy for them. Not trying to discourage you at all, just curious about how your interest in Hermeticism has led you here.

I meant 'low magick' as in "for purely physical gains." Sorry for the messy wording.

This is a lot of what I mean. I have a hard time reverting myself to such a style of thinking, and it most definitely isn't easy. I'm not trying to say that these practices don't have their merit, simply that "spiritually-progressive" is a larger topic in Hermetics than "For Worldly gains."

This thread was mostly started to build my own theory on the practice of graverobbing from a magician's point of view. I don't have any real intent to do it, but I could see the knowledge being needed one day.
My town has a lot of famous people buried in it's cemetery, and I'm curious about some of their belongings, mostly. A lot of people died in my town, and we have a Memorial Battlefield close-by as well. Not only a lot of Soldiers, but a couple famous Artists, Poets, and politicians. Who knows, there may be a powerful practitioner in there as well.

That's about all I feel comfortable discussing on the topic in a public forum [shh] Unfortunately few *reliable* books exist on necromancy and cemetery magick due to the risk factors, so it's often passed on through oral tradition or taught directly by the spirits. This isn't an open or well-trodden path like modern Hermeticism or Bardon's IIH. So if you reach an impasse in your research, can't find a good teacher or group and feel your mojo is strong enough, your best option is to sit in meditation or trance in a local cemetery, contact the gatekeeper and ask him/her about learning the protocol directly. It also helps to find a "home" cemetery and get to know the spirits there, and to establish a relationship with an appropriate death deity to guide you through the work safely. Or you could just pour out some malt liquor, rob a grave and hope for the best [crazy]

I understand what you mean. I'll be doing my own work in the future, I just needed to grab some basics.
I'd also like to set up an altar within the cemetery, but I have more work to do on that as well. Protecting it being a big issue.

[Desecrated]

I meant 'low magick' as in "for purely physical gains." Sorry for the messy wording.

This is a lot of what I mean. I have a hard time reverting myself to such a style of thinking, and it most definitely isn't easy. I'm not trying to say that these practices don't have their merit, simply that "spiritually-progressive" is a larger topic in Hermetics than "For Worldly gains."

You can use animal and human spirits as guides, guardians and familiars as you travel the higher astral and spirit realms.
Some musicians in Sweden who practiced black magic would dig up dead famous musician and pin the fingerbone inside their violin. You can even use it as a soundpin depending on what bone you take, It gives a pretty nice sound to.