Appropriate Cultural Appropriation?

[Vermiform]

Among the difficulties I face in my exploration of the occult is a percieved lack of 'connection' with many of the mythologies and traditions I have come across. I feel a need or desire for an 'ancestral connection' to a magickal tradition, however, as a white male living on stolen land, cut off from detailed knowledge about my family history and cultural lineage, I have difficulty achieving this. I have a great degree of admiration and respect to indigenous cultures from around the world, but I lack information specifically on magickal traditions that my ancestors might have had intimate contact with, and borrowing from cultures that I have no connection to feels both empty and moderately racist, in the sense that it seems to maintain the aesthetics of colonization, if that makes any sense.

So, my question to this forum is, what are some good resources on pre-christian magickal or religious traditions from northern and western Europe? As far as I know, my family is of 'English' and 'Irish' heritage, though specifics elude me, so any information of traditions from the 'British Isles' in general would be welcome, as would any other comments.

[Desecrated]

Among the difficulties I face in my exploration of the occult is a percieved lack of 'connection' with many of the mythologies and traditions I have come across. I feel a need or desire for an 'ancestral connection' to a magickal tradition, however, as a white male living on stolen land, cut off from detailed knowledge about my family history and cultural lineage, I have difficulty achieving this. I have a great degree of admiration and respect to indigenous cultures from around the world, but I lack information specifically on magickal traditions that my ancestors might have had intimate contact with, and borrowing from cultures that I have no connection to feels both empty and moderately racist, in the sense that it seems to maintain the aesthetics of colonization, if that makes any sense.

So, my question to this forum is, what are some good resources on pre-christian magickal or religious traditions from northern and western Europe? As far as I know, my family is of 'English' and 'Irish' heritage, though specifics elude me, so any information of traditions from the 'British Isles' in general would be welcome, as would any other comments.

That is an enormous subject to cover on a webpage. You should probably head to your local library and go to the mythology section. There are hundreds of books written about the British isles.

[cactusjack543]

dont know if helps but the old law of the land was kill each other for each others land lol.... )

[Nahemah]

http://www.timelessmyths.com/celtic/cycles.html

A good primer for Irish and Welsh mythology, but there is a lot more, as Des says above.

I will bring some more resources later, so is the above the kind of thing you are interested in ?

[Vermiform]

Thanks to all for responding! Desecrated, you make a good point, I probably should spend more time reading and researching on my own. Cactusjack534, I'm not sure if I agree. I have some education in anthropology that would suggest humans aren't naturally bloodthirsty savages, but that is based mostly on pre-agricultural societies, so it may not have been the case in other time periods. Nahemah, your link is very interesting and is the kind of thing I am interested in. Once again, thanks for the responses.

[equalavor]

Personally, I don't believe Cultural Appropriation to be an issue for developed societies.

It becomes problematic when we meet with undeveloped cultures, give them technology and weapons, and and then try to incorporate them into the rest of the world.
For those of us already part of the developed world, it's only hurting you *not* to learn and incorporate other cultures into your own.

Do what most magicians I know do: Read everything you can possibly get your hands on, assimilate it into your knowledge base, and discard anything that doesn't work. If it works, it's worth keeping.

After reading enough, you'll find that these seemingly different cultures and ideas don't have all that much separating them after all.

[VenusianEchoes]

Among the difficulties I face in my exploration of the occult is a percieved lack of 'connection' with many of the mythologies and traditions I have come across. I feel a need or desire for an 'ancestral connection' to a magickal tradition, however, as a white male living on stolen land, cut off from detailed knowledge about my family history and cultural lineage, I have difficulty achieving this. I have a great degree of admiration and respect to indigenous cultures from around the world, but I lack information specifically on magickal traditions that my ancestors might have had intimate contact with, and borrowing from cultures that I have no connection to feels both empty and moderately racist, in the sense that it seems to maintain the aesthetics of colonization, if that makes any sense.

So, my question to this forum is, what are some good resources on pre-christian magickal or religious traditions from northern and western Europe? As far as I know, my family is of 'English' and 'Irish' heritage, though specifics elude me, so any information of traditions from the 'British Isles' in general would be welcome, as would any other comments.

Theres really two ideas going on in the world.

1) Melting pot. This would essentially allow anyone to borrow from other cultures because we're actually developing a new culture for all humanity
2) Segregation. Saying that people of a certain race need to stick to their culture, whatever that even means. This is kind of racist in and of its self.

You have to realize, the idea of cultural appropriation is based on intellectual property. This is a fundamentally western idea, and you're viewing indigenous cultures through a western lense with this way of thinking, and essentially indicating that this western idea is universal, even though it isnt, and most of these people didnt have property rights, let alone intellectual property rights. Cultural appropriation as a form of mockery is bad, but a sincere adoption of ideas because theyre good is not bad. Viewing other cultures through western lense assumes the superiority of western ideas. This is also racist.

From what I can tell, a lot of this stuff comes down to mentalism. The symbols/mantras/etc only matter because we give them meaning. Most of the stuff we know about magick ultimately comes from the middle east(including egypt here) and europe anyway. There are other traditions that get less attention for whatever reason.

As for Celtic magick, the truth is, christians removed it from this earth. European paganism is completely dead. Instead of reconstruction (most of what we know about northern european paganism comes from outside sources, or is contaminated with christian ideas) it would be better if a new system were devised based on intense meditation.

[Eremita]

Among the difficulties I face in my exploration of the occult is a percieved lack of 'connection' with many of the mythologies and traditions I have come across. I feel a need or desire for an 'ancestral connection' to a magickal tradition, however, as a white male living on stolen land, cut off from detailed knowledge about my family history and cultural lineage, I have difficulty achieving this. I have a great degree of admiration and respect to indigenous cultures from around the world, but I lack information specifically on magickal traditions that my ancestors might have had intimate contact with, and borrowing from cultures that I have no connection to feels both empty and moderately racist, in the sense that it seems to maintain the aesthetics of colonization, if that makes any sense.

It does make sense, but I guess that's the reality we find ourselves in these days. It can be hard to try to plug oneself into an indigenous paradigm in light of the history of white colonialism. Almost like colonialism's logical conclusion: we've taken your land, your lives and your dignity - now we're coming for your culture, too.

However, to be fair I don't think most post-colonial indigenous cultures tend to look at things that way. Australian Aboriginals, for example, are usually very open to sharing their beliefs and practices with white people - there's a sense of validation that their culture is now the subject of genuine interest, rather than something to be derided and destroyed. In the United States there's the Hoodoo tradition which is an amalgamation of all sorts of different cultures, and nobody seems to have a problem with people of different races practising that.

So, my question to this forum is, what are some good resources on pre-christian magickal or religious traditions from northern and western Europe? As far as I know, my family is of 'English' and 'Irish' heritage, though specifics elude me, so any information of traditions from the 'British Isles' in general would be welcome, as would any other comments.

Well, sadly, as VenusianEchoes says above:

As for Celtic magick, the truth is, christians removed it from this earth. European paganism is completely dead. Instead of reconstruction...

Wicca was built on the claim that a pre-Christian magical cult survived the Christianisation of Europe. While I think Wicca has done a wonderful job of keeping the fragments we have alive (just who the hell is Cernunnos, anyway?), it is just that - a reconstruction fused with Western Mystery Tradition concepts (most of the rituals were lifted from Crowley's work).

Christianity sadly had a good whack at violently destroying any culture it found itself at odds with - either by elimination or assimilation (as is the case with many of the Catholic Saints and festivals). Adding to the difficulties is the fact that the Celtic people didn't really leave us any written sources. The detailed written sources we have on the Celtic religion were written by the invading Romans (dubious) and by Christian monks (even more dubious).

If European pre-Christian religion more broadly, however, rather than just English/Irish is of interest to you, there are still thankfully many ancient sources on the Roman and Greek religions.

[Vermiform]

The posters to this forum all make good points. I suppose had presumed that the lack of information on pre-christian cultures was due more to a lack of modern relevance than anything else. Once again I learn to never underestimate the destructive potential of organized religion. It's strange to think of how many oral traditions have been erased entirely, when today even our most banal and mundane thoughts may be recorded at a whim and preserved potentially for eternity.

[Desecrated]

European paganism is completely dead. Instead of reconstruction (most of what we know about northern european paganism comes from outside sources, or is contaminated with christian ideas) it would be better if a new system were devised based on intense meditation.

This is a bit off topic, but I have to chime in here.
I've spent the last 10 years studying Swedish traditional magic and I really understand where you're coming from. But to throw away folk magic just because it has some christian element in it is a massive mistake. Not only did a lot of old magic survive within christianity. But new forms of magic formed out of the combination of Christianity and pagan traditions

When we look at history we tend to forget just how much time has passed and how much things have changed over the years. 13th century magic is not the same as 15th century magic and many European countries has changed tremendously over the ages.
In the place where I''m living right now we have 11000 years of archeological evidence. But it didn't become "Sweden" until 1905. I've traced my family about 600 years back in history and we've pretty much lived in the same area, But we've belonged to 3 countries, 2 unions, 1 kingdom and 33 governments.
This means that laws, customs, religion, culture, heck, even language has changed more then once. And so has magic.

Christianity took away a lot of our early culture, but it also brought a lot of interesting ideas. Like satanism, demons, witchcraft and other nifty things.
But you also have to realize that early christianity itself was a pagan religion and there is A LOT of paganism still in christianity. Especially if you start to look into folklore and early christian churches around the time the pagan religions was still active. I've always told people that are interested in ceremonial magic and witchcraft to go to a catholic mass.

But there is also real magic in what we sometimes throw away as folk magic, folk medicine, folklore or even traditions. If you've studied ancient magic and understand the basic principles of it. You can find trace of natural magic in the most unlikely places. Old veterinary books from the 19th and 20th century are basically grimores.

The line between traditional medicine and "modern" medicine before the Victorian age is very very thin. The lines between farming, pharmacy and alchemy is paper thin. And going through old almanacs is a good lesson in astrology.
You can pick up Budges work on Egyptian herbalism, compare that to Albertus Magnus and then go to your local history museum and you'll see pretty much the same thing. The only thing that have changed in spells against snakebites are the name of the gods.

The Romans believed in health the benefits of the bath, and that is something that has been a red line right up until our own modern society. The difference between old perfume and soap recipes to voodoo bath oils is just too hard to distinguish.
Just because some the old spells include catholic saints, gods name, jesus and maria doesn't mean that you can't trace the original content in them.

[Nahemah]

EDITED TO ADD: What Des says above.

And this...

While it is true that there is a lot of Christian overwriting around, there are sources, resources and texts available that tell us a lot about Celtic culture and society [the example I'm picking because it is OP related.]

I am a Celt, born, bred and raised, [with Balt blood too] as some might say and we do have a thread of cultural continuity going on, but to be aware of this, it certainly helps to live here and be of a clan or family group that kept traditions alive. It's also a syncretic culture, with a great deal of Norse influence in the West and North of Scotland.

Surprisingly for some:

Tartan isn't all that important to us, outside of the tourist market. Clan links however, do matter.

We never wore the skirts that are for sale in the fancy shops and worn by some people to events and for weddings. Our kilts are a single piece of cloth, belted and folded and they do not look anything like the Victorian English fancy that has passed to the consumer side of tourism.

Try kilting through the heather moors if you don't believe me, lol, our national flower is the jaggy bunnet, or Thistle, to outsiders and it grows everywhere.

Haggis is a food of poverty, not a national delicacy and it was created from scraps as tenant farmers had to sell the good meat just to survive.

We don't dance around silly swordlets or spend our nights 'country dancing' in lace up pumps either.

Just a wee sample of how cultural appropriation actually matters and how it is not just something one expects when dealing with the past, or with mythological overwriting.

We have so many connections with the past here and people who understand what it means, but yes, it is often rare to find any of it in writing, though it's here if you know where to look.

On the academic front, there are scholars who are not all that encumbered by Christianity who have translated and recorded much information of use.

I will still bring some sources here, but the kenning of the metaphors may still be difficult if you are not familiar with the symbolism and meanings, which many of us still are here, despite all the gash that's been pushed out by our 'colonial masters'.

There are good reasons why you'll never see me promote Wiccan authors, or Neo-Pagan writers on the forum, unless the topic is specifically about neopaganism, of course, as they've done far more harm than good to Celtic and Norse mattters and they base their work, for the most part, on opinions based round opinions, covered by opinions ,derived from misinformation and disinformation and overwrttten Christian intepretations.

Cernunnos was a Gaulish God.

I'm Scots, we have other names and faces. Welsh, Cornish, Irish and Breton all have distinct and localised variations in patterns, systems and beliefs, there was and is no universal oneness or sameness of 'Celtishness.'

Culture is a trap said the rich landowner, to the poor tenant...

[the_spiral]

I understand these concerns OP. We live in a postcolonial world with access to more ideas, beliefs and cultures than ever before, many of our ancestral cosmologies have been interrupted or destroyed by dislocation and violence, and now we have to piece together authentic/workable spiritual worldviews from the scattered fragments. It's not easy and it's not just you. We're all stuck doing this work together.

I personally use this rule of thumb for addressing these concerns: Respect The Ancestors. That means both your own ancestors and the ancestors of others. Find and follow the path that sings to you in your blood, because your spiritual lifeline flows through your blood. Learn to sit in silence and listen to your own spirits. When you come across a new idea or practice and you're not sure whether to adopt it, trust your intuitive judgment and ask your spirits for guidance. This can get very interesting because I've found not all Ancestors come to you by Blood; some may also come by Craft. So you may find spirits calling you from paths you think you've never crossed before. Listen to them too. If it's right for you, you will know it and feel it in your blood. Your spirituality will nourish you and your magickal energy will increase because you're on your own path and no one else's.

Cultural appropriation is adopting the trappings of someone else's path without the welcome or permission of their spirits. For example, wearing the garb of traditional priestly or warrior lines as a fashion statement when you haven't passed through the liminal rites of those positions and their spirits don't recognize you. No one can force you not wear these things and it has nothing to do with political correctness. But spiritually it leads to a path that is dead, empty, devoid of truth/authenticity, and maybe even destructive if you anger the spirits whose sacred items you stole. People on these empty paths tend to get lost in all sorts of goofy New Age "woo" and go a bit bonkers because their spirituality is ungrounded. After they die things get even worse for them because they have no direction home. And honestly, you will meet spirits who simply do not want to work with you. Maybe your ancestors killed their children or disrespected their lands and they haven't forgiven your bloodline yet. Maybe they just don't recognize you as "theirs." Not every door will be open and that's okay. Bless them, wish them well, leave a peace offering at their doorstep if it feels right, and continue on with your path.

And going back to your ancestral homeland to explore the spirits and deities of that land, or even studying them in books, is a wonderful gift of modern life and can be both life-changing and path-defining. I highly recommend it. And I know historians are constantly arguing online over the finer points of Pagan reconstructionism (and Des and Nahemah brought up great points about this), but in general I think the personal Work of reconstruction, of healing wounded ancestral lines and reconnecting broken bloodlines for their currents to flow again, is a beautiful and rewarding one. So don't get caught up in all the bullshit; just find and walk your own path with integrity.