Explain gnosis, trance and altered consciousness like I'm 5?

[Little Pencil Theif]

I've honestly tried to read and practice and get a grasp on these concepts, but I have yet to sort them out. Most of Liber Null seems like gibberish to me: I only truly understand it after I grasp a subject then go back and read bits, for example. I can't seem to find practical guidance for any of these subjects so that I can use them, though I have found things that seem like work-arounds so that I can get sigils to work and stuff like that. I think it is more an issue of not being able to line up what others write about to my own experiences.

Gnosis: I read about going into gnosis to charge sigils, and instructions will say things like, "enter gnosis (or trance) and then visualize..." but I have no clue what I'm supposed to be trying to do in practical terms. I read the different methods, but to no avail. (I'm female with atypical orgasms, so very unhelpful). I've been told visualisation is a form of gnosis, and read an instant where someone got lost in thought and walked well past their intended stopping point - and they claimed that was a moment of gnosis. Most instructions, however, simply say it can't be described and I'll just know, and babble off soemthing about single-pointed awareness and a point of no-mind, which seem like impossible goals. I've been trying to figure this out for a year to no avail.

Trance I see instances where this is used instead of gnosis, alternatively during rituals of different sorts. Some say folks need this for things like remote viewing, but I don't do anything special. Yet others say you can't actually know you are in a trance, which doesn't make sense in the context. What sorts of things am I looking for?

Altered Consciousness This just loses me. I get completely lost in thought and can visualise pretty well (I "art"). I'm an experienced lucid dreamer and have some luck with astral travel. These don't seem like anything out of the ordinary (I didn't realize some folks couldn't visualize well until a couple years back). Yet reading tells me that gnosis and trance are a form of this, as are others, and I'm just confused as to how to figure out if what I do is good enough or if I've obtained one of these mysterious altered consciousnesses.

[Desecrated]

It is really hard to explain.
How do you explain dreaming to somebody that has never had a dream?

[Little Pencil Theif]

It is really hard to explain.
How do you explain dreaming to somebody that has never had a dream?

Dreaming: Like watching bits of a movie while you sleep. Sometimes it is boring, and sometimes it is more like a cartoon, and sometimes it is pretty surreal. You can sometimes taste, hear, and feel everything in that movie just like you living the movie itself. (A movie is a bunch of pictures after each other). Some folks see color, some don't, and a few people just have something that is more similar to reading a book out loud in their head (and don't see visuals). A few people can realize they are dreaming while they do it, but most can't, and a few can think while they dream and make decisions. Lots of folks forget they dream when they wake up, but not always, and most folks realize it wasn't real when they wake up. Daydreaming is simliar, except it isn't always as realistic and you are awake.

[fraterai]

I actually don't see it as hard to explain, they are all the same. You are talking about gnosis to charge a sigil, well chaos magicians use the term gnosis to describe altered states also know as trances (since your question reflects this context I will use it). Some trances excite and some inhibit. Spin around in circles, drink a beer (if legal), or copy a book for an hour and you will reach an altered (different from usual) state of consciousness. Some or all of these can be used to absorb or "charge" a sigil, some work best for certain things and certain people.

Now, other schools of thought use the word gnosis very differently, and it basically means the "knowledge" (not facts, but a realization of some "truth" or idea) obtained due to a "spiritual experience" which usually is connected to a trance or altered state.


Surely one can find specific meanings for all of these terms but at that point they only apply within the context of a specific system and will be easy to confuse or argue about. Since everything effects your mood, physical feeling, etc., you can talk about meditation trances, food trances, sorrow or happy trances, drug trances, unlimited trances


As far as describing what a specific trance or altered state is, which I think what Des meant and I agree, that is very hard. It's the reason why we have so many descriptions of God, for one, but also if you have used an intoxicating substance you know it is difficult to describe to someone who hasn't tried it. You can do it but it's better to just experience it

I sometimes know I'm definitely in a trance and I'm sure other times I am unaware like deep sleep, or others.

[Little Pencil Theif]

I actually don't see it as hard to explain, they are all the same. You are talking about gnosis to charge a sigil, well chaos magicians use the term gnosis to describe altered states also know as trances (since your question reflects this context I will use it). Some trances excite and some inhibit. Spin around in circles, drink a beer (if legal), or copy a book for an hour and you will reach an altered (different from usual) state of consciousness. Some or all of these can be used to absorb or "charge" a sigil, some work best for certain things and certain people.

Ok. So, with your understanding, I'm not so much looking for some odd special feeling *within* those things, but the feeling itself and deciding to use that feeling or instance? (I've been looking for some weird moment in some of these things, actually). And going on that, it would seem more that my workarounds aren't so much workarounds, but doing it without realizing it.

And just for another example: I draw and paint. I get so absorbed I won't process others talking, and have to stop doing it to talk. I'm generally like this when I incorporate sigils into artwork. I'm going to guess this is basically enough, so long as I'm conciously directing everything to the intent?

As far as describing what a specific trance or altered state is, which I think what Des meant, that is very hard. It's the reason why we have so many descriptions of God, for one, but also if you have used an intoxicating substance you know it is difficult to describe to someone who hasn't tried it. You can do it but it's better to just experience it

I sometimes know I'm definitely in a trance and I'm sure other times I am unaware like deep sleep, or others.

I do get that it is difficult, and thank you for trying It just makes it difficult to sort through on my end, especially since I get the feeling I've done this stuff but don't really quite 'get' how to recognize it (heh. insecurity). Especially difficult when lots of folks phrase it the same way. Meditation folks sometimes get stuck in some of the same loops.

[LoneWolf]

I am not sure how much of this I know but here I go

Trance state: Quiet rational mind, not even conscious of being conscious, just BEING.
Gnosis: Purest of trance states. One with all. BEING with all.
Altered state: Any mental state such that is not in the range of "normal" frame of mind. If in a regular week you are lets say from -3 to +5 (more trancy to more aware). ie. In all instances of your existence in a week your frame of mind was between -3 to +5, any state outside such range may be called and defined as an Altered State.

Altered states > Trances > Gnosis (in a sense of bigger set)

My regards

[Kami]

I know how to physically induce something that appears to be: "Single Pointed Awareness"...

And it looks somethig like this:



Some people say they can see this through meditation,
But I am too impatient to just sit there and try to mediate just to see that green eye surrounded by what appears to be radiowaves.

So I apply just enough pressure on the left and right sides of my eyeballs - where my peripheral vision is located,
For at least a minute.

Then after a minute - what you see on a television screen,
The snow or animated silver particals that are buzzing around,
Is what I see - accompanied by strange transparent colors.

Then a few seconds more - a green eye appears with a white pupil at the center of it.

Scientists say that this entire universe is filled witj background cosmic radiowave radiation,
And that is what televisions pick on.

So if that is true,
Then I guess I am with the: "All",
When temporarily blind myself.

...

I'm probably wrong,
But here is what I really think what "Gnosis" means,
It is a state of Mind/Feeling/Belief that helps you focus,
Like for me,
My Gnosis would be,
Believing that I know what reality is.
E.T.C.

It is pretty much finding your own paradigm or making one up that hasn't been proposed by popular people yet,
But makes sense to you anyways.

It allows you to perform magick.

...

Also - Please don't stress your eyes with your fingers like I do every now and then.

I'm a professional at this,
I never hurt myself doing this,
And nothing bad ever happens.

Just don't. ~

...

Hope I helped...

[fraterai]

And just for another example: I draw and paint. I get so absorbed I won't process others talking, and have to stop doing it to talk. I'm generally like this when I incorporate sigils into artwork. I'm going to guess this is basically enough, so long as I'm conciously directing everything to the intent?

...

I do get that it is difficult, and thank you for trying It just makes it difficult to sort through on my end, especially since I get the feeling I've done this stuff but don't really quite 'get' how to recognize it (heh. insecurity). Especially difficult when lots of folks phrase it the same way. Meditation folks sometimes get stuck in some of the same loops.

What you describe in the first part is exactly what (usually chaos-magic definition of) gnosis through concentration or one pointedness is. Similar to driving on the freeway for a while, you might miss your stop or totally shock yourself for a second when you realize that you got that far without "consciously" driving. I want to say that yes, you are "doing it" and not taking shortcuts, but that doesn't mean you aren't making errors. I understand your frustrations but I want to say keep at it. The main problem (pointed out a lot on this forum) is theory/practice. With theory we can have as many system-contexts, definitions, explanations from others, all of this is helpful. But you won't answer the specifics of your question without first hand experience of trying and failing. Basically your best benchmark is whether or not the operation succeeds.

The way you describe your construction of sigils is a very powerful method of charging them, this is described by Israel Regardie, AO Spare, and even Salvador Dali, but it is recommended that you ritualize the practice and give it a "formal charging" as well, just to cover your bases, etc.

If I had to really simplify this whole operation, you basically just "work yourself up (or down)" with "energy" (desire is a better word), then in exhausting this high/low pitch you are free to "pour all of it into the sigil" (or you broke down the psychic censor and are free to feed the subconscious directly).

Hope this helps

[LoneWolf]

I

What is that image suposed to be Kurokami? I see that black grey white pattern whenever I am in the dark and relax myself. What is it and where did you get that idea from? Don't know about the green stuff though. It usually comes with the pitching noise in the ears.

[Kami]

I

What is that image suposed to be Kurokami? I see that black grey white pattern whenever I am in the dark and relax myself. What is it and where did you get that idea from? Don't know about the green stuff though. It usually comes with the pitching noise in the ears.

Third eye?
Maybe?
I.D.K.

It is just what manifests when I temporarily blind my self.

Some who meditate can see that as well.

...

I was making a joke about single pointed awareness with that experience.

Then term: "Single Pointed Awareness" isn't literal...
It is a refence to a feeling of such intense focus,
That feels like it is a single pointed awareness,
Through enlightenment.

Most christians believe they know what reality is,
*Though I am not a Christian - I have my own perception of reality.*
And they perform magick through prayer via their God.

That is what Gnosis is. ~

...

Sorry if I confused you with that picture.

...

Anyways,
Here is what google has to say about: "Gnosis"...

Gnosis is the common Greek noun for knowledge (in the nominative case γνῶσις f.). It generally signifies a dualistic knowledge in the sense of mystical enlightenment or "insight".
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosis

Sorry if I appear to be being aggressive or blunt,
It's just the way I type... >///>

[Little Pencil Theif]

What you describe in the first part is exactly what (usually chaos-magic definition of) gnosis through concentration or one pointedness is... I want to say that yes, you are "doing it" and not taking shortcuts, but that doesn't mean you aren't making errors. I understand your frustrations but I want to say keep at it. ...

Thanks muchly. That helps a lot - definitely something I can carry over to other things and work with and build on. Making mistakes is fine, baseline starting point helps out.

The way you describe your construction of sigils is a very powerful method of charging them, this is described by Israel Regardie, AO Spare, and even Salvador Dali, but it is recommended that you ritualize the practice and give it a "formal charging" as well, just to cover your bases, etc.

It seems to work out, just takes some time, as does working within dreams. Plus the whole thing with artwork being more public than private, so I can't always rule out incidental charging from unsuspecting folks. Most of this is to expand and weirdly be a bit more 'formal' or 'focuses' with it all. Had some luck with other methods as well, but was never really sure about the gnosis bit, so those methods have been a bit harder to assess what works and what doesn't - and the covering bases can't be a bad thing either

Again, thank you muchly.

[fraterai]

No problem. If you didn't like Liber Null try Stealing Fire from Heaven by stephen mace. Besides being a good book in general he actually sticks to Spare's method of constructing the _personal_ alphabet of desire.

[Little Pencil Theif]

I don't think I have read that, I'll definitely check it out. I wound up reading a lot of Phil Hine and a few others, and something or another had never quite 'click' with this topic ('til now), and kinda held off one some things because of it.

Liber Null is weird. I know folks that took to the book well, it just isn't a good one for me to learn from - probably something with the writing style. It makes sense in sections I have a base knowledge about, so I will probably go back to it once I get a little more confident and see what I pick up from it. The illustrated guide is wonderfully illustrated, though.

[fraterai]

Liber Null is not bad but it definitely is "Chaos Magic" meaning, it is not just the "artistic ensorcellment of elementals" or sigil sorcery that AO spare taught and they used and expanded upon. Chaos magic, meaning the actual movement where all these books came out of, was heavily influenced by ceremonial magic, even if sigil magic was one of the main tools they used. I can see where the book might not sit well with you, and stealing fire is more about personal sorcery than "chaos magic", and tries to teach AO Spare's direct methods, which are somewhat cryptic or vague to read from him, (i think he did this because he figured you would practice, and its the only real way to learn). The main points are there tho. Good luck and feel free to ask any more questions

[Little Pencil Theif]

I've read some of Spare's stuff, and figured it was cryptic partially because he was half nuts (which might just be a respectable aspect), but also because that was either what was needed or popular at the time. I'm not sure folks would have accepted it so well if he used plain language. Somewhat obvious where some of it is based, considering the different versions of the LRBP that are out there. The most unfortunate thing about some of those sorts of rituals is that I see the christianity in the movements most folks leave in when they take the god and angels out - I was raised Eastern Orthodox, and Sundays were church ritual days. I don't know if that takes away from the occult ritual any more than it gives me a different sort of respect for the Christianity of my parents.

Chaos magick seems to be a harder learning curve than some of the other paths (I have seen folks tell others to learn a system or two and then turn to CM) - though I know there is Liber MMM in Liber Null, which is probably the most straighforward section of the book - but the practicality of keeping what works and not needing to stick to traditional dogma is wonderfully appealing.

And I will. At some point, I'll have more questions, I'm sure.

[fraterai]

People love to say this path is better than that path and you can get lost for years trying paths, but they are all the same:

1) Meditation: thought control and visualization
2) Magic: Theurgy and thaumaturgy or magic on the microcosm and magic on the macrocosm or spiritual magic and practical magic etc etc

Everything else is just bonuses, like religion, diet, fasting, exercise, yoga, etc.

Both of these teach you how to know your self, know your health, learn what "energy" is and how to control it and move it, "gnosis", and develop your senses and maybe even your "extra" senses. So just do both of these things every day and don't get lost in a "path" unless you have access to a direct teacher, lodge, etc. I know you want better explanations of things and keep searching for it in the books, but you are at the point where practice comes first, you've felt these things, you have had successes, etc. Spare was certainly, absolutely, sane and one of the most under appreciated and over looked mages of his time!

[Shinichi]

Okay, young'un. [razz] First rule: magic is simple. People complicate it. Always look for the simplicity in things - find the underlying principles, and you will understand more than those who obsess over the surface riddles.

Gnosis: I read about going into gnosis to charge sigils, and instructions will say things like, "enter gnosis (or trance) and then visualize..." but I have no clue what I'm supposed to be trying to do in practical terms. I read the different methods, but to no avail. (I'm female with atypical orgasms, so very unhelpful). I've been told visualisation is a form of gnosis, and read an instant where someone got lost in thought and walked well past their intended stopping point - and they claimed that was a moment of gnosis. Most instructions, however, simply say it can't be described and I'll just know, and babble off soemthing about single-pointed awareness and a point of no-mind, which seem like impossible goals. I've been trying to figure this out for a year to no avail.

In Chaos Magick, gnosis is just another word for what is usually a Light Trance. In older schools of magic Gnosis is something more specific and very different from how it is used by Chaotes.

Trance I see instances where this is used instead of gnosis, alternatively during rituals of different sorts. Some say folks need this for things like remote viewing, but I don't do anything special. Yet others say you can't actually know you are in a trance, which doesn't make sense in the context. What sorts of things am I looking for?

"noun
1. a half-conscious state, seemingly between sleeping and waking, in which ability to function voluntarily may be suspended.
2. a dazed or bewildered condition.
3. a state of complete mental absorption or deep musing.
4. an unconscious, cataleptic, or hypnotic condition.
5. Spiritualism. a temporary state in which a medium, with suspension of personal consciousness, is controlled by an intelligence from without and used as a means of communication, as from the dead."
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/trance

Basically, it's a state of consciousness where you experience things differently than in your normal state of awareness. This can be the complete suspension of the conscious mind, as in certain Hypnosis practices, or more spiritual things such as experiencing Self-Realization or learning how to merge your consciousness with things external to you (such as experiencing the world from the perspective of a tree, or an ant). There's more than one type of Trance. Not just in terms of its depth, but also in terms of how you are using it.

Trance, in a more personal practical sense, is a very deep subject. There are different stages of Trance, usually divided into Light, Deep or Heavy, and a range in between. A Light Trance is when you are a little "zoned-out," or "in the zone" as some people say - be it sports, art, daydreaming, video games, or anything else, many people have experienced that special "zone." In this state, your mind is operating a bit differently, but you are still mostly conscious and "present." Deep Trance is very intense. Edgar Cayce was a popular psychic in the early 20th century who regularly went into Deep Trance with the help of another. While in this Deep Trance, Cayce was effectively asleep and laying down, but they were able to ask him questions and Cayce would answer - from his state of consciousness, he had access to a cosmic pool of information much bigger than himself.

Altered Consciousness This just loses me. I get completely lost in thought and can visualise pretty well (I "art"). I'm an experienced lucid dreamer and have some luck with astral travel. These don't seem like anything out of the ordinary (I didn't realize some folks couldn't visualize well until a couple years back). Yet reading tells me that gnosis and trance are a form of this, as are others, and I'm just confused as to how to figure out if what I do is good enough or if I've obtained one of these mysterious altered consciousnesses.

This is just another term for Trance, like Gnosis, especially in Chaos Magic or Modern Magick circles. Its meaning is pretty straightforward: any state of consciousness that is different from your "base" state is an altered state of consciousness. If you get high, you are in an altered consciousness. When you sleep, you're in an altered consciousness. When you get so angry that you can't control yourself, you are in an altered consciousness. And so on, and so forth.



~:Shin:~

[corvidus]

If you get high, you are in an altered consciousness. When you sleep, you're in an altered consciousness. When you get so angry that you can't control yourself, you are in an altered consciousness. And so on, and so forth.

~:Shin:~

Most absolutely.

Gnosis can also be defined as "knowledge". Many times, people have their own personal gnosis. Something only they know, because they've experienced it in either altered consciousness or trance.

And in my opinion, experience is the only truth we know.

Trances are cool, and linked with breathing.