Original post: Shepard of Arcadia
GnosticA
Your thinking of the Mandaens, they're a surviving Gnostic group from ancient times living mostly in Iran and Iraq.
More issues with "Gnosis"
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Original post: pmcv
Hey [Gnostic]a+
As Shepard points out, I believe it is the Mandaeans you are talking about rather than Manichaeans. The Mandeans are an interesting group, but there are some difficulties in dealing with them from the perspective of "Gnosticism". Initially they are called "Gnostics" because the very name "Mandeans" essentially means "Gnostics"... or "Knowers". The problem is, though, that the Mandaeans didn't call themselves by this name. They do have some similarities with Manichaism, and are often confused with each other.
It is interesting to note that the person who initially called the Mandaeans "Gnostic" (Drower) later recanted saying that they were indeed not Gnostic at all, and that she only initially said they were because a friend in the field jumped to that conclusion (probably Quispel). On this issue I won't take sides, but I would caution that from the academic perspective the Mandaeans are no longer considered "Gnostic" by most. I have not looked deeply enough into their beliefs to make an observation on the matter.
Uraeusheap
I should really be more specific here, and more fair. The end of Manichaeism in China obviously took more than just a few bans against them, and these attempts to push them out came not only from Buddhists, and not the worst from Boddhists. Initially, in the 840s, it was Emperor Wu-Tsung who outlawed both Manichaeans and Buddhists (and other religions as well) in favor of Taoism and Chinese traditionalism. It was in the Yuan dynasty that Lamaism became state religion, and the ban on Manichaeans was again reinforced (1285).
"Killed off" is really a bit more dramatic a term than I should use, because I am not necessarily only talking about physical violence. More often what we see is simple repression in the form of bans, siesure of property, and destruction of books and temples.
PMCV
Hey [Gnostic]a+
As Shepard points out, I believe it is the Mandaeans you are talking about rather than Manichaeans. The Mandeans are an interesting group, but there are some difficulties in dealing with them from the perspective of "Gnosticism". Initially they are called "Gnostics" because the very name "Mandeans" essentially means "Gnostics"... or "Knowers". The problem is, though, that the Mandaeans didn't call themselves by this name. They do have some similarities with Manichaism, and are often confused with each other.
It is interesting to note that the person who initially called the Mandaeans "Gnostic" (Drower) later recanted saying that they were indeed not Gnostic at all, and that she only initially said they were because a friend in the field jumped to that conclusion (probably Quispel). On this issue I won't take sides, but I would caution that from the academic perspective the Mandaeans are no longer considered "Gnostic" by most. I have not looked deeply enough into their beliefs to make an observation on the matter.
Uraeusheap
I should really be more specific here, and more fair. The end of Manichaeism in China obviously took more than just a few bans against them, and these attempts to push them out came not only from Buddhists, and not the worst from Boddhists. Initially, in the 840s, it was Emperor Wu-Tsung who outlawed both Manichaeans and Buddhists (and other religions as well) in favor of Taoism and Chinese traditionalism. It was in the Yuan dynasty that Lamaism became state religion, and the ban on Manichaeans was again reinforced (1285).
"Killed off" is really a bit more dramatic a term than I should use, because I am not necessarily only talking about physical violence. More often what we see is simple repression in the form of bans, siesure of property, and destruction of books and temples.
PMCV
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Original post: uraeusheap
Thanks pmcv. Since we're on the subject of China has anyone read a book called The Jesus Sutras (i think it's by Martin Palmer) which talks about an early form of Christianity in China which used Buddhist and Taoist vocabulary (? and ideas) to spread itself. It was written from the viewpoint of a conventional Protestant but in a quite open-minded if not overly scholarly way. To what extent were these early Chinese Christians Gnostic or gnosticoid?
Thanks pmcv. Since we're on the subject of China has anyone read a book called The Jesus Sutras (i think it's by Martin Palmer) which talks about an early form of Christianity in China which used Buddhist and Taoist vocabulary (? and ideas) to spread itself. It was written from the viewpoint of a conventional Protestant but in a quite open-minded if not overly scholarly way. To what extent were these early Chinese Christians Gnostic or gnosticoid?
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Original post: Jenfucius
I have never heard of that book but I'm going to put it on my "books to get" list thats for sure. That would be a interesting book I would think.
I have never heard of that book but I'm going to put it on my "books to get" list thats for sure. That would be a interesting book I would think.
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More issues with "Gnosis"
Original post: pmcv
Uraeusheap
Say, I like that word... "gnosticoid", it could be very useful.
Anyway, the particular Christians that Palmer is talking about are mostly Nestorians (which were outlawed in China at the same time as the Manichaeans). They were there from Syria trying to gain converts. Not only are they not Gnostic or even gnosticoid, they really aren't Taoist either. It does seem the practitioners in China picked up a little of the lingo of Buddhists, and to a lesser extent Taoists, but I think this was far less genuinely syncratic that Palmer would like to have us believe.
PMCV
Uraeusheap
To what extent were these early Chinese Christians Gnostic or gnosticoid?
Say, I like that word... "gnosticoid", it could be very useful.
Anyway, the particular Christians that Palmer is talking about are mostly Nestorians (which were outlawed in China at the same time as the Manichaeans). They were there from Syria trying to gain converts. Not only are they not Gnostic or even gnosticoid, they really aren't Taoist either. It does seem the practitioners in China picked up a little of the lingo of Buddhists, and to a lesser extent Taoists, but I think this was far less genuinely syncratic that Palmer would like to have us believe.
PMCV