Why do you believe this stuff?

Gflame · Post by **Gflame** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:36 pm

very very well said spot on you expressed my thoughts excatly

purgatory · Post by **purgatory** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:15 pm

Chosef wrote:I mean what is the point.

Is it just to be rebellious because your mean parents made you go to church when you were a kid?

Is it just because being a satanist is cool because he's like the ultimate rebel or what?

I mean what is the point other than to be bad ass trolls who wear weird customs and do strange rituals and well basically it's just a way to troll christianity and the establishment by giving them the middle finger.

I mean do you really think Satan is a good guy or what? Do you think he exists? Has he like ever come by and hung out with you? Does satan only hang with the cool crowd who are like into art and self-expression and all that stuff or what?

Oh and is Satan gay? I know he can appear as a woman and and she can appear as a man and it is actually adrogynous and doesn't have any genitalia because I saw it on a marilyn manson album but whatever I mean why are you into it and can you really give a valid explanation for it other than it's your way of getting back at your parents because they were mean and neglected you and didn't give you all the things you wanted? Or what?

Oh don't get angry now you are powerful and I'm just an ignorant fool so please be kind for surely Satan would not want you to do anything foolish now would he.

You will not know anything else either..... . *sheep*

Post by **dodaive** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:33 pm

This is a great topic and a great section for it

The core essence of what I see the conflict between Christianity and Satanism. the Christians seem to be focused on building a strong belief that is set in stone, and creating a defense system against anything that might attack that belief. The major things out there to attack this belief is knowledge, logic and reasoning. The theory of evolution gives a great example of how this happens. Historical texts are very seldom considered accurate, if they are taken literally. It is just too hard to maintain historical script and meanings intact. Evolution in my view is trying to answer how god created us as opposed to wether he exists or not. Most fundamental Christians has taken evolution as a personal attack. Truly being human means to gain knowledge and apply logic and reasoning. Without it there are just too few things to distinguish us from animals. I have spent some time with interest in ant psychology. Of course humans have much greater inate abilities, but Fundamental Christians can take even these superior abilities to achieve social needs that barely surpass, and in way fall short of that of ants. I can go into this further if there is interest. Because of this extremism created by fundamental Christians, an extremist faction is created in the opposite direction, this is the Hegalian Anti-thesis. This also presents problems, But

i would go on a rant if I was to continue.

JonBrim · Post by **JonBrim** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:33 pm

I wasn't going to reply but i have to ask, who are you? Seriously you would have to be a world leader or the messiah to get a visit for a creature you say is satan, but satan is only a word that means enemy. So get back on the meds or i'll start making fun of jesus to you.

hobotubbie · Post by **hobotubbie** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:33 pm

Belief.. it's such an hard word to understand.
I mean .. pretty much anything we do in life it's because we believe in something.. less we better just hide in a hole and wait for death to come.
For some believing in the spiritual world is just as important as breathing.. like the mental or physical needs that we have, i guess that you are born with that need or not, but for what i've seen lately more and more people seem to hung for that.
Regarding the original post i believe that he's trolling in a way but he just typed the word "satan" like 10 times so i believe there's some cry for help behind all that, i mean, he actually bothered to register and type about it lots of times.
I hope you find the answers you are looking in here or somewhere else, what i have to tell to you is that after all his said the walk must be done by the individual and you won't find rainbows and gods in clouds over there, it's an hard work like anything in life and the only certainty you have is that none knows the entire truth.. we just do what we have to do to feel happy and fullfill.
About satan and all that garbage you wrote, everything has a balance in life, and whatever you might picture in your pink dreams in people nature you have good and evil, like yin yang there must be a balance it's pretty much basic thinking.

Sorry for any mistakes or incoherence on my writings im a bit drunk.

Cheers.

yyxx · Post by **yyxx** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:57 am

dodaive, I am very interested in what you have to say. Reason being I have been trying to conceive a possible system of beliefs that approximates the Truth most accurately, accounts for the human side of things (community, our fleshy nature etc.) and contains nothing that would create friction or opposition. A so-called black-grey-white (white-grey-black) path. A realistic but considerate set of ideas.

Post by **dodaive** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:18 am

@yyxx
that sounds interesting, what exactly was it that I said that related, I would like to hear more about this belief system.

yyxx · Post by **yyxx** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:02 pm

dodaive
Particularly what you mentioned around extremism/fundamentalism: The inevitable emergence of opposing factions when an institution leans in a direction.
Also if you could point me to good resources on ant psychology I would appreciate that.
I'd like to get a deeper insight into what you have thought/read on the matter of these emergent opposites.

My current perspective is (and right now its very jumbled - first time I've tried writing it down properly) such:

What are we achieving if we try and establish two 'absolute' standpoints that are based on relative notions? Moreover it makes little sense to me to create values simply out of opposition. This, to me, is equivalent to blindly accepting the first proposed set of values.
I believe our values, ideas and practices should be based on the best possible approximations of the truth that we can muster at this point in our evolution. This does unfortunately rely on humans needing to find a better language with no ambiguity. It might make sense to start talking in math

Our true nature constantly surrounds us. It is in the trees. It is in the birds, caterpillars and turds. To quote Nietzsche: "The middle is everywhere". There are no real extremes. They are all assumed. They originate from the cloudy goggles of our flesh. Our true nature lies beyond that.
Part of the problem lies in the flesh machine's conception of spirit.

What I think is necessary for this species is a basic framework in which we can fit everything that can be considered valid. Embrace the light. Embrace the dark. Deny both. What I believe is important spiritually is that we see our true nature and embrace it. I think on a physical level all that matters is that we do what needs to be done. We will never experience any kind of unity as a species if some of us are always hiding in the dark and others are always sucking on the light (my angle is that unity and cohesion are necessary for the sake of evolution - at least at this shaky point in time).

Just like how far into the future we shall all physically be light brown (if the current trajectory continues uninterrupted - which it probably won't), I would imagine that when we all have the minds to handle it, spiritually we shall all be grey.

Post by **dodaive** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:08 pm

[quote="yyxx"]dodaive
Particularly what you mentioned around extremism/fundamentalism: The inevitable emergence of opposing factions when an institution leans in a direction. [quote=yyxx"]

[quote="yyxx"] Also if you could point me to good resources on ant psychology I would appreciate that.
I'd like to get a deeper insight into what you have thought/read on the matter of these emergent opposites.
[quote="yyxx"]

Edward Wilson, the most famous myrmecologist (one who studies ants) wrote a complete textbook Sociobiology:The new synthesis and makes lots of comparisons between ants and humans.

[quote="yyxx"]
This does unfortunately rely on humans needing to find a better language with no ambiguity. It might make sense to start talking in math

[quote="yyxx"]
This is one problem that I spend the most time pondering over. I think about the thickness of a medical textbook, and all the wasted words that don't add anything to meaning, also why is it so important to have a have way to pronounce what we wrote. I want to see the knowledge of a medical textbook reduced down occult sigils, and put in a small leather grimiore that I can carry in my pocket. Why sigils not just a pocket ebook, because i want my mind to digest it fully. I have studied Classical Chinese, and they actually did use a few of the principles I just talked about.
lil bit of hurry, but will be bact to post more on this

yyxx · Post by **yyxx** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:52 pm

ah cool. Many Thanks [greensmile]
Really like the idea of sigilizing knowledge...

blackdove · Post by **blackdove** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:46 pm

funny how this thread quickly got off topic. [neutral]

Vashta · Post by **Vashta** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:15 am

I wouldn't wory, it's in the troll pit, if some interesting conversation comes of it, all the better ^_^

Nahemah · Post by **Nahemah** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:06 pm

I'm gonny go literal on this one ,just for fun...

Is it just to be rebellious because your mean parents made you go to church when you were a kid?

No,it's because I tranced out in Mass,because the litany was monotomous and repetitive.I saw beyond th consensus view,so to speak,in visionary terms.

*

Nahemah · Post by **Nahemah** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:07 pm

Any other takers?

Asmus · Post by **Asmus** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:33 pm

I seriously can't be bothered to read 5 pages of this, but god damn, has anyone pointed out that this isn't an exclusively satanist forum yet? If someone has, sorry, but seriously. Just what exactly do you think "this stuff" is, chosef? Maybe you should do some reading before you ask that. For instance, one could easily conclude it's not a satanist forum, considering there is a GNOSTIC SECTION. Even if there wasn't, the SATANIST SECTION is completely separate from the other sections. Even if you thought all things occult were satan, you could pretty much correct that ignorance juts by reading the sections in this forum. Honestly.

hyperRitual · Post by **hyperRitual** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:16 pm

Recently I drew a comparison between the two systems of ideas arising at the same moment in history (1904): Einstein's theories of space-time relativity, and Austin Osman Spare's theories which I described as "a relativity of belief". It was interesting that the year of the writing of the Book of the Law, i.e. the first year of Crowley's New Aeon, should have been the time when traditional ideas of "the absolute" came under attack on two fronts.

Einstein undermined the idea of absolute position. So such questions as "does the sun go round the earth or the earth go round the sun" were demoted from being questions about absolute truth to questions about human choice. The answer is that from an everyday perspective it is easiest to think of the sun as circling the earth: it allows us to go on using handy expressions as "sun rise" and "sun set". But in a scientific framework it is much simpler to work with the idea of the earth circling the sun - because the equations are easier.

Because I saw this idea as very basic to magic, the nature of belief has been a recurring theme in mine own ideas. In SSOTBME I pointed out that the question "do you REALLY believe in spirits", which is typical of the non-magician, is not very interesting to the magician. The latter is more likely to argue as Crowley did that "I perform certain actions and certain results follow"; and, as with the scientists' heliocentric equations, the spirits often provide a neater model of the phenomena than any psychological or coincidental theory of magic.

We all recognise the power of absolute belief - fanaticism can move mountains - but we see that it is a power which tends to rule the believer. Magic is more concerned with ruling over power than being ruled by it. The struggle is perhaps to "beef up" our carefully chosen beliefs by making the unconscious accept them as absolute, but without handing over our control in the first place.

It is because of this confusion about belief - the heavy associations which linger with the word - that I have wondered about finding an alternative or replacement concept. Instead of "believing in" some idea, might we not "delight in" it? or "rejoice in" it? Or perhaps it is better to kidnap a dated phrase and say "instead of believing in ideas I am going to dig them". So the answer to "do you really believe in spirits?" becomes "no, but I really dig them!"

// Ramsey Dukes, Paroxysms of Magick

Asmus · Post by **Asmus** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:32 pm

Nehema, thanks for pointing out that bit about church. If only i had read the last comment before posting... i could have had this in one gigantic post! Ah well.

Anyway, regarding church: Yes, my asshole parents "made" me go to church. But it wasn't making in the traditional sense. They forced me indirectly, hinting that they would go as far as to harm me physically if I ever attempted to break away from the faith. I never really accepted the idea that God or Gods could exist, fortunately. I attribute this lack of belief to not believing in santa claus before i really started paying attention in church.

My parents were abusive, sexist, racist bastards. They were bigoted towards anything that they perceived as a threat to them or their religion, and never failed to complain about the actions of other people because it was against their beliefs. Avid FOX watchers and a father who was a heavy drinker, they beat me and tortured me mentally daily for 8 years (from the age of about 5), before they finally stopped paying attention to me in EVERY respect; except when it came to church. They still enforced this; probably to maintain an image in the community. And to this day, they got away with it

Are all christians like this? No. But this is a stark example of what happens when religion is allowed to be imposed on others. It's a stark example of what happens when religion is allowed to be an excuse for actions. And it's a shining example of a large portion of the christian (and other religions, too) faith. Maybe that "boring christian mass" played a part in my religion, but I find it more likely that my "religion" played a part in my finding christian mass boring. Also, oppression probably played a roll in me finding christian indoctrination opressive, and vice versa (finding out what oppression is). Just saying.

Nijiman · Post by **Nijiman** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:47 pm

Chosef

I can tell from your ramblings that you like most Christians have never bothered to study the history of your faith. First and foremost, let us be perfectly clear; Not everyone who doesnt attend your slef righteous community is a Satanist. The study of the occult is the study of or search for that which is hidden or has been hidden since antiquity. Yes it is true that there are some who dabble in the dangerous and even the forbidden, they do so out of ignorance, but then there are many Christians who also dabble in the dangerous and forbidde, many more who place themselves upon a pedistal and Judge Jury and executioner for any and all who do not follow their beliefs. While you have a relationship with a Church, others have chosen to search for a more personal relationship with EL (God the creator).

I do not see anyone trying to be cool as you put it, I do however see you being an ass. And whats more God see's you being an ass. Contrary to what you may have been taught, God did not call you to be everyone elses judge. Many shall come in that day and say but Lord Lord did we not heal the sick and raise the dead and do many wonderful works in your name, and he shall say depart from me for I never knew you. There is a big difference in knowing about God and actually knowing him. I doubt seriously that you would know God if he sat next to you on a bus and said Hi! Try actually reading scripture, try searching other ancient text and quit relying soly on your pin headed Pastor for all of your knowledge.

LandOfShadows · Post by **LandOfShadows** » Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:15 am

Hi,

Not sure this guy has read the book of Job... Basically Satan has a bet with God, actually watch this:

I can't think of one time Satan in the Bible did anything wrong ??
But God... He was a nasty bugger !!

Look each to their own, I am not a Satanist, and I am not poking fun out of religion, but when people start talking through their rear end, due to taboo's and media slanted ideas on the Occult it ticks me off, just a tad.

LoS
Steve

talus · Post by **talus** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:34 am

Chosef wrote:what is the point other than to be bad ass trolls who wear weird customs and do strange rituals

What is the point of what exactly? I don't understand what you are referring to. Why do I practice the occult? Well I don't anymore but I used to in the past. But I grew beyond rituals. Rituals are templates for an undeveloped mind, and that's fine because that is as it is intended to be. But in order to accept flaws and weakness you also have to be willing to accept strength. When you have accepted strength, in order to grow beyond your station you have to be willing to still accept your own ignorance because no one knows everything.

My ultimate goal is a higher understanding. Now granted I am me ... there are some people here who are dogshit. I'm not even going to beat around the bush on it. They make up these ridiculous theories just to suit their own perception. But this makes them no different than what they choose to hate, thus they choose to hate themselves. I am not like those people and I don't think everyone here, or in the occult world, is like those people either. At least potentially. Everyone has the opportunity to grow. But it's up to them whether or not they choose to grow. There is no limitation for it does not exist. Actually I lied, there is one limitation and it is yourself. Are you limited by your boyfriend/girlfriend? If you feel that you are, then you are wrong ... for you are actually allowing it to happen thus you are limited by yourself. You can go straight down the line on that, parents, family, friends ... permanence does not exist in nature's vocabulary, nor in our own mind's vocabulary.

So what is the point? The point is to expand my consciousness and understand what I do not because I choose to do so. I do not suggest you stand in my way ... because I will choose to destroy you; either literally, physically or metaphysically. Capiche?

Chosef wrote:I mean do you really think Satan is a good guy or what? Do you think he exists? Has he like ever come by and hung out with you? Does satan only hang with the cool crowd who are like into art and self-expression and all that stuff or what?

What do you define as "good"?

Most people in western nations are "christian". How many of them have read the bible? If you ask them, they will all claim to have read it. But how many of them have actually understood it? Very very very few. "Thou shalt not kill" unless they are gay, "possessed" (epilepsy), heretic, heathen, et cetera ... and yet what do they hate in "opposing" religions? Let's use muslims as an example. There are stories of muslims pouring acid on the hands of little girls for not learning as they had desired them to. There are stories of muslims sentencing children to death for blasphemy. And yet this is a public drama in the western christian world. Why? Are they superior? Do they know more? (Yes I live in the USA .......... ) And yet they declare war on nations for oil, they rage against nations such as Afghanistan for some ridiculous bullshit on 9/11/2001 while even the UK goes through this shit every other day. And we then send soldiers to this country. Are they perfect? Are they fucking PERFECT? No. How many US Soldiers died in Afghanistan? A few thousand. How many Civilians died in Afghanistan? A few HUNDRED THOUSAND. And WHERE WAS YOUR GOD? HUH? HOW MANY OF THOSE SOLDIERS IN THE US (my nation) AND NATO WERE CHRISTIANS? MOST OF THEM!!!!

So DO NOT come to me talking about your ridiculous perception of good and evil because it DOES NOT exist in this world. But MOST people in the occult world have chosen one way or the other and they should AT LEAST be respected for that because at least they are aware of what they have chosen.

By the way, NEWS FLASH ... As a former satanist myself, I can say to you with the utmost sincerity and experience that a lot of satanists are not black and white ... good and evil ... what drew them to become satanists in the first place was their belief that christianity itself was not as "good" as it claimed to be. Marilyn Manson believes this. Boyd Rice believes this. The founder of the Church of Satanism believes this. All three of these men are highly respected in satanism, and if you had taken 1 hour to get off your fat lazy ass and research what the hell you were talking about before you opened your mouth then you would not be here saying the things you say now.

And I feel that you are probably not christian. But what is it exactly that differs you from what you choose to "hate"? EH? NOTHING!!! When we throw your belief aside, the truth is you choose to be just as ignorant as they are!

And how does that make you feel? Good??!!? I am sure your christian enemies would feel exactly the same.

Chosef wrote:Oh and is Satan gay?

So what if he is?

Chosef wrote:Oh don't get angry now

Too late.

Yeah I know I shouldn't be nasty but this guy was totally asking for it.

Asurendra · Post by **Asurendra** » Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:51 pm

Satan? Annoying ones parents? Heavy metal?

I think it is sad that people have such a shallow view of what is broadly 'the occult' to reduce practitioners to such banalities based upon bunk.

hobotubbie · Post by **hobotubbie** » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:10 pm

Satan made a bet with God?! lol.. them degen gamblers, bet i'll come across them one of these days gambling our souls away playing craps in the pit!

Jokes aside, i never had much faith in anything.. but this changed my mind and now in the Lord i trust!

Post by **manonthepath** » Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:30 pm

Why does anyone believe in anything? In some cases you probably hit it right on the head. In others not. Each has his/her/its own path in the cosmic vortex. What's the point of asking why people think a certain way? Who cares anyway? Your problem is that you focus on others at the expense of your own personal development. What should matter to YOU is how YOU think!!!! Stop worrying about others and take care of yourself. Worrying about others is a waste of time that will only bring you suffering, because you have little power to influence their journey. It is not your responsibility whether others grow or not. your responsibility is that you should grow!

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